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Father of four here.

> It is worth it, and anybody without kids who says otherwise knows not of which they speak.

Marriage and parenthood have both transformed my life in really amazing ways. Having a family relying on me has made me a better, happier person, and it's brought me a stronger sense of purpose. I had kids early, and my friends thought I was crazy, and I used to try to change their minds: you've no idea what you're missing, I told them! You've got to try it!

I still think parenthood is life-changingly amazing, but as I've watched more of my contemporaries get married have kids... a lot of them are pleased as punch, but at least a few don't seem to be. I've begun to temper my advocacy of getting married and having kids to people who aren't sure if it's for them. Maybe they're not sure for a reason. People who've never been parents can't know how great it might be without trying it, but I've learned that I can't extrapolate perfectly from my experience, either.

As another example along your axis of revisited priorities, everyone wants healthy kids. No kids are always healthy. Some immensely less so than others of course, etc etc. Success is the kids are healthy today.

Can deal with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune against yourself as an adult by time/getting used to it, and just becoming old school tough. Which don't work for parenting a sick kid.

I think that is a good example of re prioritization.

> It is worth it, and anybody without kids who says otherwise knows not of which they speak.

That's some gross generalization. Any childless bachelor could know what the "path" is like by staying over with a friend that has a child and helping out for some time.

On the other hand, parents that walk the path and later find out they're not cut out for it, have to suffer quietly, and can't voice their true opinions, because it's taboo; because no one can dare fathom someone might not like kids, and so many get pressured into having them without having what it takes.

"That's some gross generalization. Any childless bachelor could know what the "path" is like by staying over with a friend that has a child and helping out for some time."

Uh, no.

Having children isn't like having a dog or being a part-time nanny or live-in tutor. It is a multi-decade commitment to raising another human being from infancy to adulthood with all of the frustrations and joys -- yes, joys -- that come along with it.

"On the other hand, parents that walk the path and later find out they're not cut out for it, have to suffer quietly, and can't voice their true opinions, because it's taboo..."

Who are these parents, quietly suffering? I've seen a lot of crappy parents, who complain about their kids. I've seen a lot of deadbeat parents, who up and abandon their kids. And I've seen a ton of childless adults playing backseat parent.

If you've got some studies and numbers to back up this apparent crisis of parenting victims, please share.

The internet is full of forums for parents to discuss regretting having kids. Do your own research.

Also I didn't say (live-in tutor) == (being a parent). I said it's a way one can know what the path is like. Just like you can tell what the ocean is like by watching a movie of the ocean.

Do your own research.

The onus is not on me. I have done my research: I am a parent, and that's the position I'm promoting.

If you can't defend your own position, don't expect somebody else to.

So you doubt there are parents that regret having kids? You can prove yourself wrong in 10 seconds of googling. I won't help those who don't want to see the truth for themselves.

[Citation Needed]

Don't come to a gunfight and expect somebody else to loan you ammo. If you can't be bothered to even dredge up some links, don't bother trying to debate with the adults.

Really interesting point. I listened to 'Q on CBC' where they recently featured a guest where she talked about how the world is pitted parents vs. child-free couples.

I think the "us against them" mentality is where the child-free peeps are seen as narcissistic individuals who don't take on this important responsibility. Her argument was that it's kinda of a false dichotomy, and there are plenty of ways for child-free couples to contribute to society while parents by definition, have to have priorities of their children taking place over society at large.

Not to mention it is facetious to say that parents are selfless in the first place as there are many selfish reasons to have children.

However, I'd love to hear more about people who decided not to have children and whether they felt like they have contributed to society in some other way, whether by their works, their association with their associates or associates' childrens.

My partner and I (heterosexual relationship) have both independently decided to not have children. Personally, I was raised at first with an abysmal parent, and then by a slightly-better-but-still-not-good parent. Never had money, homeless, abusive, etc.

I don't want to have kids not because they left a bad taste in my mouth (I still love them: they were young, made a mistake, but still tried), but because I never got to experience all the things I wanted to as a child. So my life as a 20/30 something is dedicated to experiencing the world. Finding joy in others, in travels, in food, and in contribution.

That said, if children were ever to be an option, it must be adoption. It is so incredibly selfish to say that the (non-existent) child you might produce with a partner is more deserving of safety, freedom, and a fulfilling life, than an already living person. Granted, adoption is full of its own political and socioeconomic issues.

Children are actually a great way to experience what you missed in childhood.

Perhaps you are right, but I also want to experience what my parents never did.

I decided not to have kids because my take on the near-term likely future isn't entirely optimistic, and I don't want to risk being right.

Regardless, I have a serious driving interest in making that future better. I have no idea if it's as much motivation as a parent has, but it's still a very big motivator.

the real beauty when you realize it, is your kid could be the one to change that pessimistic future. the responsibility is on you to instill the values and train them up to be your idealized future. because who else will do it??

> Any childless bachelor could know what the "path" is like by staying over with a friend that has a child and helping out for some time.

I'm childless and I don't really agree with your point. Staying with a friend that has a child and helping out isn't the same as having a child. You are able to (and will) leave at some point.

A parent has to deal with the, in my opinion, heavy knowledge that this human being's continued existence and future is mostly in their hands. That small and large decisions will now have small and large consequences for not just themselves but for their child/ren. It changes your perspective on just about everything because of this and most people can't fathom that change (is the argument.)

> Staying with a friend that has a child and helping out isn't the same as having a child. You are able to (and will) leave at some point.

Ain't that true. Where it hits you as a parent is when you leave the hospital and then realize that there's no one to give you a spell, check your mistakes, process the return. I can imagine how grandparents must enjoy children, free of the ultimate responsibility.

> Any childless bachelor could know what the "path" is like by staying over with a friend that has a child and helping out for some time.

This is a important point which i struggled as well. As a teenager, i had my lived closely with two of my cousins ( from when they were newborn to primary school). Then as an adult with a another cousins children. But, when my daughter was born, i was totally surprised at the transformation i had undergone. I believe nothing can prepare you for having a child. I discussed this my wife and cousins as well and they too agree. There is something special about the parental feelings which needs you to be a parent.

> because no one can dare fathom someone might not like kids

Everyone can agree that raising children is not a bed of roses. There are lots of struggles, sacrifices and challenges. And more importantly its a long term commitment. Some people willingly make sacrifices and do micro management or spend a lot of time on parenting. Some are easy on parenting part and some offload the whole thing to nanny or grandparents. All of them like the good parts of being a parent but would like to trim down on the less favourable aspects. So its not about "not liking the kids" but finding a right balance in parenting in what you could do.

Having said that, I believe that having a child should not be an impulsive act but rather a conscious decision by both partners. If your partner or the circumstances are unfavourable then better not let another individual also struggle through it. But, still the whole feeling is so wonderful that its better to work towards a direction to setup the things for being a parent and enjoy through it.

And you can easily become a parent without even reading the brochure. When the child is born you are not granted with any more wisdom that you had, it is the same you, only with a child in hands. How do you deal with it is another question.