It's true that having a child forces any responsible adult into revisiting their priorities, and some things that seemed important before parenthood suddenly aren't. I don't think it eliminates a desire to be successful: I think that it changes the parameters by which you determine success.
And having a child throw up/mess on your nice clothes and shower the inside of your nice car with food and toys tends to make you settle for less in those departments, I admit.
Prior to kids, I considered success to be pulling down a six-figure salary, having a nice big house and my own office at a high-profile, successful company. Now? Success is having a quiet office (size unimportant but preferably my own), enjoyable work and time to spend it with my kids before they are old enough to leave home.
It is worth it, and anybody without kids who says otherwise knows not of which they speak. Parenthood is the difference between knowing the path and walking the path. If you're not a parent, you've just read the brochure.
That's some gross generalization. Any childless bachelor could know what the "path" is like by staying over with a friend that has a child and helping out for some time.
On the other hand, parents that walk the path and later find out they're not cut out for it, have to suffer quietly, and can't voice their true opinions, because it's taboo; because no one can dare fathom someone might not like kids, and so many get pressured into having them without having what it takes.
Uh, no.
Having children isn't like having a dog or being a part-time nanny or live-in tutor. It is a multi-decade commitment to raising another human being from infancy to adulthood with all of the frustrations and joys -- yes, joys -- that come along with it.
"On the other hand, parents that walk the path and later find out they're not cut out for it, have to suffer quietly, and can't voice their true opinions, because it's taboo..."
Who are these parents, quietly suffering? I've seen a lot of crappy parents, who complain about their kids. I've seen a lot of deadbeat parents, who up and abandon their kids. And I've seen a ton of childless adults playing backseat parent.
If you've got some studies and numbers to back up this apparent crisis of parenting victims, please share.
Also I didn't say (live-in tutor) == (being a parent). I said it's a way one can know what the path is like. Just like you can tell what the ocean is like by watching a movie of the ocean.
The onus is not on me. I have done my research: I am a parent, and that's the position I'm promoting.
If you can't defend your own position, don't expect somebody else to.
Don't come to a gunfight and expect somebody else to loan you ammo. If you can't be bothered to even dredge up some links, don't bother trying to debate with the adults.
I think the "us against them" mentality is where the child-free peeps are seen as narcissistic individuals who don't take on this important responsibility. Her argument was that it's kinda of a false dichotomy, and there are plenty of ways for child-free couples to contribute to society while parents by definition, have to have priorities of their children taking place over society at large.
Not to mention it is facetious to say that parents are selfless in the first place as there are many selfish reasons to have children.
However, I'd love to hear more about people who decided not to have children and whether they felt like they have contributed to society in some other way, whether by their works, their association with their associates or associates' childrens.
I don't want to have kids not because they left a bad taste in my mouth (I still love them: they were young, made a mistake, but still tried), but because I never got to experience all the things I wanted to as a child. So my life as a 20/30 something is dedicated to experiencing the world. Finding joy in others, in travels, in food, and in contribution.
That said, if children were ever to be an option, it must be adoption. It is so incredibly selfish to say that the (non-existent) child you might produce with a partner is more deserving of safety, freedom, and a fulfilling life, than an already living person. Granted, adoption is full of its own political and socioeconomic issues.
Regardless, I have a serious driving interest in making that future better. I have no idea if it's as much motivation as a parent has, but it's still a very big motivator.
I'm childless and I don't really agree with your point. Staying with a friend that has a child and helping out isn't the same as having a child. You are able to (and will) leave at some point.
A parent has to deal with the, in my opinion, heavy knowledge that this human being's continued existence and future is mostly in their hands. That small and large decisions will now have small and large consequences for not just themselves but for their child/ren. It changes your perspective on just about everything because of this and most people can't fathom that change (is the argument.)
Ain't that true. Where it hits you as a parent is when you leave the hospital and then realize that there's no one to give you a spell, check your mistakes, process the return. I can imagine how grandparents must enjoy children, free of the ultimate responsibility.
This is a important point which i struggled as well. As a teenager, i had my lived closely with two of my cousins ( from when they were newborn to primary school). Then as an adult with a another cousins children. But, when my daughter was born, i was totally surprised at the transformation i had undergone. I believe nothing can prepare you for having a child. I discussed this my wife and cousins as well and they too agree. There is something special about the parental feelings which needs you to be a parent.
> because no one can dare fathom someone might not like kids
Everyone can agree that raising children is not a bed of roses. There are lots of struggles, sacrifices and challenges. And more importantly its a long term commitment. Some people willingly make sacrifices and do micro management or spend a lot of time on parenting. Some are easy on parenting part and some offload the whole thing to nanny or grandparents. All of them like the good parts of being a parent but would like to trim down on the less favourable aspects. So its not about "not liking the kids" but finding a right balance in parenting in what you could do.
Having said that, I believe that having a child should not be an impulsive act but rather a conscious decision by both partners. If your partner or the circumstances are unfavourable then better not let another individual also struggle through it. But, still the whole feeling is so wonderful that its better to work towards a direction to setup the things for being a parent and enjoy through it.
Can deal with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune against yourself as an adult by time/getting used to it, and just becoming old school tough. Which don't work for parenting a sick kid.
I think that is a good example of re prioritization.
> It is worth it, and anybody without kids who says otherwise knows not of which they speak.
Marriage and parenthood have both transformed my life in really amazing ways. Having a family relying on me has made me a better, happier person, and it's brought me a stronger sense of purpose. I had kids early, and my friends thought I was crazy, and I used to try to change their minds: you've no idea what you're missing, I told them! You've got to try it!
I still think parenthood is life-changingly amazing, but as I've watched more of my contemporaries get married have kids... a lot of them are pleased as punch, but at least a few don't seem to be. I've begun to temper my advocacy of getting married and having kids to people who aren't sure if it's for them. Maybe they're not sure for a reason. People who've never been parents can't know how great it might be without trying it, but I've learned that I can't extrapolate perfectly from my experience, either.
But I don't like the thought that as soon as you have a child, you instantly have to be defined by that. Is reproduction really the meaning to life? (Biologists say absolutely). And saying you don't have to be successful anymore is very strange to me. Why wound't you need to be successful professionally to provide or personally to be happy? Don't you want your child to be successful, not rich but personally successful however they grow to define it? and shouldn't you show that to them by example?
Not so much defined by that. Instead, motivated by entirely new impulses. Its not that you change your mind about success. Your mind changes, and that isn't a bad thing.
> Your mind changes
> and that isn't a bad thing
I'm very suspicious about that. Every new experience has the chance of changing the way you think, it's natural. But for something to have that much of an impact it has to involve a lot of brain chemistry. And I don't trust in being intoxicated by hormones, I'd rather use other, safer drugs for this.
I'm glad you brought this up. There's nothing that's forced upon you, you are not defined by this. It just happens so that most people change their priorities voluntarily and happily when they have a child.
I personally continue pursuing professional success, of course. The difference is that if I become unsuccessful for any reason then the world won't collapse. So it just becomes much less important.
You may lose finite things like time, but not your identity. Parenthood only uncovers more of it.
The other aspect of parenthood is it brings your life design into sharp focus. Proximity to bars and restaurants and hip furnishings suddenly take a very distant back seat to access to quality neighbourhoods, schools and places to spend time with your kids. Old friends snigger that you don't go out anymore and figure your life must be so boring - sometimes they act sympathetically when you spend another Friday night in. They don't realise Friday nights in with a young family are great fun.
"Let's say gravity suddenly shifted a little making everyone a little bit lighter. It would likely make the news circuit for a while and make movers and other professional lifters particularly happy.
But after the scientists had explained again and again why it happened and all the potential story lines had been exhausted by newspapers and television pundits, religious zealots and idle conversationalists (“How about that gravity?”), we would accept it, perhaps with a individual joy all our own.
Which is to say, even though a slight shift in gravity on Earth literally changes everything on our home planet, after awhile we’d adjust. Occasionally we might think back to the days before gravity changed with wonder and even nostalgia, but we’d know that everything being lighter is just better on one of those annoyingly and truistically difficult-to-communicate levels and continue with the practice of everyday life, with appropriate changes to this new state of lightness.
Parenting for me is something like this."
*
This is by LA writer and critic Andrew Berardini, seen in http://www.broodwork.com/index.php?/projects/andrew-berardin....
Then again there are some mental case parents, who lose all social connections, gain 100lb and can never be seen again by their friends. Just don't be that. I have former friends like that, it is some kind of North American phenomenon. For me it feel so nuts I really don't get how people become that.
I don't want to slam your well put, positive point, but this was not true for me at least. Getting married and having kids has motivated me to work hard and aim high - I could have (and did) sat around on my ass playing video games for the rest of my life. Different strokes for different folks, but I'm a far more driven person after gaining responsibilities than before.
But you sound like you're measuring success by your role in the workplace. I'll bet they care a lot more about your role as a father.