Those of you on HN that are past the 30+ mark. What would you add to this list?
It's true that having a child forces any responsible adult into revisiting their priorities, and some things that seemed important before parenthood suddenly aren't. I don't think it eliminates a desire to be successful: I think that it changes the parameters by which you determine success.
And having a child throw up/mess on your nice clothes and shower the inside of your nice car with food and toys tends to make you settle for less in those departments, I admit.
Prior to kids, I considered success to be pulling down a six-figure salary, having a nice big house and my own office at a high-profile, successful company. Now? Success is having a quiet office (size unimportant but preferably my own), enjoyable work and time to spend it with my kids before they are old enough to leave home.
It is worth it, and anybody without kids who says otherwise knows not of which they speak. Parenthood is the difference between knowing the path and walking the path. If you're not a parent, you've just read the brochure.
> It is worth it, and anybody without kids who says otherwise knows not of which they speak.
Marriage and parenthood have both transformed my life in really amazing ways. Having a family relying on me has made me a better, happier person, and it's brought me a stronger sense of purpose. I had kids early, and my friends thought I was crazy, and I used to try to change their minds: you've no idea what you're missing, I told them! You've got to try it!
I still think parenthood is life-changingly amazing, but as I've watched more of my contemporaries get married have kids... a lot of them are pleased as punch, but at least a few don't seem to be. I've begun to temper my advocacy of getting married and having kids to people who aren't sure if it's for them. Maybe they're not sure for a reason. People who've never been parents can't know how great it might be without trying it, but I've learned that I can't extrapolate perfectly from my experience, either.
Can deal with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune against yourself as an adult by time/getting used to it, and just becoming old school tough. Which don't work for parenting a sick kid.
I think that is a good example of re prioritization.
That's some gross generalization. Any childless bachelor could know what the "path" is like by staying over with a friend that has a child and helping out for some time.
On the other hand, parents that walk the path and later find out they're not cut out for it, have to suffer quietly, and can't voice their true opinions, because it's taboo; because no one can dare fathom someone might not like kids, and so many get pressured into having them without having what it takes.
Uh, no.
Having children isn't like having a dog or being a part-time nanny or live-in tutor. It is a multi-decade commitment to raising another human being from infancy to adulthood with all of the frustrations and joys -- yes, joys -- that come along with it.
"On the other hand, parents that walk the path and later find out they're not cut out for it, have to suffer quietly, and can't voice their true opinions, because it's taboo..."
Who are these parents, quietly suffering? I've seen a lot of crappy parents, who complain about their kids. I've seen a lot of deadbeat parents, who up and abandon their kids. And I've seen a ton of childless adults playing backseat parent.
If you've got some studies and numbers to back up this apparent crisis of parenting victims, please share.
Also I didn't say (live-in tutor) == (being a parent). I said it's a way one can know what the path is like. Just like you can tell what the ocean is like by watching a movie of the ocean.
The onus is not on me. I have done my research: I am a parent, and that's the position I'm promoting.
If you can't defend your own position, don't expect somebody else to.
Don't come to a gunfight and expect somebody else to loan you ammo. If you can't be bothered to even dredge up some links, don't bother trying to debate with the adults.
I'm childless and I don't really agree with your point. Staying with a friend that has a child and helping out isn't the same as having a child. You are able to (and will) leave at some point.
A parent has to deal with the, in my opinion, heavy knowledge that this human being's continued existence and future is mostly in their hands. That small and large decisions will now have small and large consequences for not just themselves but for their child/ren. It changes your perspective on just about everything because of this and most people can't fathom that change (is the argument.)
Ain't that true. Where it hits you as a parent is when you leave the hospital and then realize that there's no one to give you a spell, check your mistakes, process the return. I can imagine how grandparents must enjoy children, free of the ultimate responsibility.
I think the "us against them" mentality is where the child-free peeps are seen as narcissistic individuals who don't take on this important responsibility. Her argument was that it's kinda of a false dichotomy, and there are plenty of ways for child-free couples to contribute to society while parents by definition, have to have priorities of their children taking place over society at large.
Not to mention it is facetious to say that parents are selfless in the first place as there are many selfish reasons to have children.
However, I'd love to hear more about people who decided not to have children and whether they felt like they have contributed to society in some other way, whether by their works, their association with their associates or associates' childrens.
I don't want to have kids not because they left a bad taste in my mouth (I still love them: they were young, made a mistake, but still tried), but because I never got to experience all the things I wanted to as a child. So my life as a 20/30 something is dedicated to experiencing the world. Finding joy in others, in travels, in food, and in contribution.
That said, if children were ever to be an option, it must be adoption. It is so incredibly selfish to say that the (non-existent) child you might produce with a partner is more deserving of safety, freedom, and a fulfilling life, than an already living person. Granted, adoption is full of its own political and socioeconomic issues.
Regardless, I have a serious driving interest in making that future better. I have no idea if it's as much motivation as a parent has, but it's still a very big motivator.
This is a important point which i struggled as well. As a teenager, i had my lived closely with two of my cousins ( from when they were newborn to primary school). Then as an adult with a another cousins children. But, when my daughter was born, i was totally surprised at the transformation i had undergone. I believe nothing can prepare you for having a child. I discussed this my wife and cousins as well and they too agree. There is something special about the parental feelings which needs you to be a parent.
> because no one can dare fathom someone might not like kids
Everyone can agree that raising children is not a bed of roses. There are lots of struggles, sacrifices and challenges. And more importantly its a long term commitment. Some people willingly make sacrifices and do micro management or spend a lot of time on parenting. Some are easy on parenting part and some offload the whole thing to nanny or grandparents. All of them like the good parts of being a parent but would like to trim down on the less favourable aspects. So its not about "not liking the kids" but finding a right balance in parenting in what you could do.
Having said that, I believe that having a child should not be an impulsive act but rather a conscious decision by both partners. If your partner or the circumstances are unfavourable then better not let another individual also struggle through it. But, still the whole feeling is so wonderful that its better to work towards a direction to setup the things for being a parent and enjoy through it.
But I don't like the thought that as soon as you have a child, you instantly have to be defined by that. Is reproduction really the meaning to life? (Biologists say absolutely). And saying you don't have to be successful anymore is very strange to me. Why wound't you need to be successful professionally to provide or personally to be happy? Don't you want your child to be successful, not rich but personally successful however they grow to define it? and shouldn't you show that to them by example?
Not so much defined by that. Instead, motivated by entirely new impulses. Its not that you change your mind about success. Your mind changes, and that isn't a bad thing.
> Your mind changes
> and that isn't a bad thing
I'm very suspicious about that. Every new experience has the chance of changing the way you think, it's natural. But for something to have that much of an impact it has to involve a lot of brain chemistry. And I don't trust in being intoxicated by hormones, I'd rather use other, safer drugs for this.
I'm glad you brought this up. There's nothing that's forced upon you, you are not defined by this. It just happens so that most people change their priorities voluntarily and happily when they have a child.
I personally continue pursuing professional success, of course. The difference is that if I become unsuccessful for any reason then the world won't collapse. So it just becomes much less important.
You may lose finite things like time, but not your identity. Parenthood only uncovers more of it.
The other aspect of parenthood is it brings your life design into sharp focus. Proximity to bars and restaurants and hip furnishings suddenly take a very distant back seat to access to quality neighbourhoods, schools and places to spend time with your kids. Old friends snigger that you don't go out anymore and figure your life must be so boring - sometimes they act sympathetically when you spend another Friday night in. They don't realise Friday nights in with a young family are great fun.
"Let's say gravity suddenly shifted a little making everyone a little bit lighter. It would likely make the news circuit for a while and make movers and other professional lifters particularly happy.
But after the scientists had explained again and again why it happened and all the potential story lines had been exhausted by newspapers and television pundits, religious zealots and idle conversationalists (“How about that gravity?”), we would accept it, perhaps with a individual joy all our own.
Which is to say, even though a slight shift in gravity on Earth literally changes everything on our home planet, after awhile we’d adjust. Occasionally we might think back to the days before gravity changed with wonder and even nostalgia, but we’d know that everything being lighter is just better on one of those annoyingly and truistically difficult-to-communicate levels and continue with the practice of everyday life, with appropriate changes to this new state of lightness.
Parenting for me is something like this."
*
This is by LA writer and critic Andrew Berardini, seen in http://www.broodwork.com/index.php?/projects/andrew-berardin....
Then again there are some mental case parents, who lose all social connections, gain 100lb and can never be seen again by their friends. Just don't be that. I have former friends like that, it is some kind of North American phenomenon. For me it feel so nuts I really don't get how people become that.
I don't want to slam your well put, positive point, but this was not true for me at least. Getting married and having kids has motivated me to work hard and aim high - I could have (and did) sat around on my ass playing video games for the rest of my life. Different strokes for different folks, but I'm a far more driven person after gaining responsibilities than before.
But you sound like you're measuring success by your role in the workplace. I'll bet they care a lot more about your role as a father.
Your thirties expand and narrow your world: expansion into parenting (for many) and to richer relationships, if you can survive them, with spouses. But now you know your limits, and the sky is no longer it. There's a contraction of options, but the few options you have grow deeper.
By forty you know you have nothing to prove or, contrariwise, you've proven just how limited you are. You've made your bed and you're lying in it. For many this is a crisis and they struggle to break free, but there's no escaping it: you're older. You feel your own age in your mind and body (knees? back? eyes?) truly for the first time. But once you get over the shock, you realize that you're still young enough. You also realize, if you've stayed at the hard work of marriage and parenting and building skills and opportunities for a career, that you've got a lot to be confident about. You're humbler, but more powerful and capable, than ever.
I haven't reached 50 yet so I have to stop there.
Experience something horrible.
I grew up in a ridiculously perfect fantasyland. My parents, who have an ideal marriage, told me I was the best at everything, encouraged every dream I had, paid for college and insulated me from all of life's difficulties re: money, stress, etc.
To make matters worse, I excelled right along with the praise -- made good grades, got into a top-10 college, started a company after college which was lifestyle-profitable for 7 years. (It could have been a major score if I'd executed better, but that's beside the point.)
When my company started to decline post-2008, I had to go get a job. I excelled at it, but got crossways with my boss for entirely personal reasons and was fired.
This back-to-back double-whammy was by far the worst experience of my life. I'd never experienced failure or rejection and my psyche/ego simply didn't know how to handle it. I sunk into a depression for 3 years. It's not hyperbole to say I almost didn't survive it.
But I'm on the other side of it now. The darkness is receding. I know this because I know the double-whammy was entirely necessary for me. The spoiled brat is gone. I empathize with others. I care about the journey people have taken to the point where I meet them. None of that mattered before. It was all me, me, me, the worldbeater.
Yeah I'm in my mid 30s now and the past 5 years were tough. But I'm glad I've already spanned the chasm now than in my mid-50s. Now I'm better prepared for things to come.
One slightly separate piece: I used to have massive entrepreneurial angst. I was a person who looked at those who have "made" it and got angry. Angry at lack of co-founders. Angry that my school's alumni network doesn't have the best SV connections. Angry at perceived ageism in tech circles... But now I know that all advantages others might have on you -- better schooling, younger, lucky career breaks, etc -- can be trumped by one thing: traction. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, purple, one-armed, blind, gay or republican -- If you have something worth investing in, you can find investors. Period.
Related to this: if you have kids yourself, or you're in a position of providing guidance for kids, keep providing a safe and consistent environment for them yourself, but teach them that the world is not fair, that adults are not always right and not always consistent, that they themselves are not always the smartest person in the room (nor should they always want to be), and that other people care about themselves much more than them.
Or, in short, don't just teach them that the world is awesome (though it can be); teach them how to get what they want out of a world that's not out to hand it to them.
Sports, IMO, are one of the best ways that families that have everything "put together" can show their kids some adversity. And for kids, everything is local. So while losing a basketball game, isn't like a dad losing a job, for the kid it can still seem like a really big deal.
In that regard, it's all about calibration. If you're the smartest person in the room, good for you, but you should also find another room where there's more challenge to be had and more fun to be had.
Note that all levels of accomplishment are something to celebrate; I'm not suggesting the kind of "nothing is ever good enough" reaction that leads to kids doing things they don't actually have an interest in doing. However, when you find an area of interest, go deep into it and find creative challenges that push you to go even further.
Also, those kinds of competitions, whether sports or academic, aren't necessarily a sufficient view into human nature. For example, most competitions like that have a clear set of rules and take a dim view of cheaters, while many other aspects of life reward creatively "cheating" to get ahead over always doing things the long way like everyone else is. Consider how people talk about finding a creative solution that takes less work: "I could have written a complete implementation of $foo myself, but I cheated by hacking $bar into mostly doing it for me, and it worked well enough to get the job done." See also Larry Wall's praise of "laziness, impatience, and hubris".
A consistent process and consistent rules produces consistent results; that's good for not doing worse than normal, but it also means you'll never find a way to do better than normal.
Find ways to reward creative solutions over unthinking rule-following. Play games that rely on creative deception and hidden information. In a competition with rules, follow the rules; in life, have a set of principles you live by, but don't automatically respect every arbitrary rule, especially the implicit unwritten ones that nobody questions. Just make sure you understand the implications and consequences, because it might be there for a reason rather than solely for the sake of arbitrariness.
There is absolutely something transformative about being purified by fire (trials), which sorts helps sort out your priorities.
I look back with amazement on that period which defined who I am more than any other period. What I learnt always that I could get back on my feet, I could turn things around, and when I did, I no longer took things for granted, whether that was jobs, friendships, relationships and more.
I almost pity anyone who hasn't gone through a rough period as they haven't been able to test out who they really are.
Even though you're young, try and still go to the doctor every once in a while for checkups. But even if you don't like going to doctors, don't just ignore pain in your body. For example, ignoring a sore wrist or back, or ignoring digestive and sleep issues can easily lead to life-long disabilities.
It's also common for people to experience mental health issues (in a way that starts to impact relationships and work performance) for the first time in their early 30s...
It's a fairly common event, but it's generally really scary for everyone involved. Getting stable with medication and then also working with a trained therapist can help you pull through this.
Happiness is fleeting; satisfaction is lasting. We all need to play and just be happy - I'm not arguing against that. But longer term, I've often felt we're better off figuring out what makes us satisfied at the end of each day. When I'm on my deathbed, I want to be satisfied with the way I spent my life. I know that my "deathbed" could come today, or it could come 50+ years from now. That's a wild range.
Commit to yourself now that you won't let work expand to fill the time alotted. Don't accept that from yourself, and don't accept that from others. (Within reason; everything can't get done overnight, but a "multi-year research project" often doesn't really need many person-years worth of effort, it just turns out that way because people let it.)
Do your best not to off yourself until your parents are dead. Avoid romantic relationships and avoid inflicting your accursed genes on another generation. Do not make promises that you cannot keep.
Seek out and savor close friends. Know yourself and treat yourself with kindness. Reflect on your astonishing fortune to have been born in a time and place where someone like you has a shot at enjoying life.
Some people will attempt to persuade you that living in agony is virtuous. It is not. Tell them white lies.
2) Save, save and save more. Spend your money on things that matter (such as visiting your family more). I worry about the future of labor in the US.
SAVE, SAVE, SAVE, SAVE, SAVE. Seriously, if you don't want to have to be working for the rest of your life it's time to start saving now. Maximize earnings. Maximize savings. I just realized at 31 how much savings opportunity I wasted over the past 7 years... Actually, I don't even want to calculate it up. I'm focused on the future.
Save!
And sleep more.
- not everything in the world can be expressed as an equation
- conserve your body as if your life depends on it, it does
- there is a story behind everybody
The more you invest, the more you are likely to benefit over time.
In fact you may be surprised more than anything else out there. In many cases, even more than careers, job, raises and promotions- investments play a very critical role in how well you are going to do financially.
> Start saving and investing as early as you can. If you
> haven't, do it on a war footing. Get rid of debt.
The decisions I made, the things I learned, the rash choices I made, decisions to quit jobs and do something exciting when I couldn't afford it, randomly moving to another country without any kind of security net, dumb startups that I didn't have the savings to bootstrap properly, holidays I took that I couldn't afford, needing to execute on things because without it I wouldn't eat, starting (and then finishing) an expensive degree I couldn't afford, the partying I did...
I wouldn't change it for a thing. If I die tomorrow, I will have lived.
Those experiences are what have put me in the very solid earning position I'm in now. I save nearly 70% of what I earn, I've been out of debt and had solid savings for a while, and I have a great standard of living.
Leaving it all to Lady Luck and hoping that it works out OK in the end is obviously a risky strategy, but the idea that your 20s should be about scrimping and saving rather than getting out there and screwing stuff up is equally risky.
1. Good friends are more valuable than cool friends. Learn who to trust and who's a flake. Remain friends with the flakes, but don't rely on them.
2. Don't stay where you're unhappy. Give it some time, then move on. Try something else.
3. Focus, focus, focus when you're doing one thing. Other times, branch out.
4. When you're young you are time rich and cash poor; when you're old you are cash rich and time poor. Don't put things off until you're older - travelling when retired will not inform your life.
5. The happiest people have good work-life balance. This may not go down well on HN, but having seen people around the world living different lives, this is a general observation. A relative was a counsellor, and he told me "No-one [at the end of their life] ever wishes they'd spent more time at the office." Perhaps working long hours for a while with a view to achieving this balance later is OK.
6. Forget the money. https://vimeo.com/63961985
7. Take holidays. Regularly. Force yourself to.
8. The secret to stamina is sleep.
9. Mix with people of all demographics, or you will end up with a narrow view of life.
10. If you've thought about doing something for a long time, you should probably do it.
11. If you're having a conversation with someone about breaking up with your partner, then it is time to break up, or at least, take a break and see how it feels - don't waste your time and your partner's time procrastinating.
12. In relationships, you should always make extra effort, even when you've already made extra effort. Relationships take a lot of work, long-term. Surprise your partner.
13. Really listen to people. It's such a hard skill to develop. Start today.
14. Realise how lucky you are to wake up with hot water, heating, and nice food. Many people in the world don't have these luxuries. Living on no money when travelling is a good way to learn this.
15. Travel. But don't party the whole time. Often travelling is best done mid-late 20s when you've done the partying thing. Stay with local people. Don't plan too much. Get into the countryside.
16. If you're writing an email and it feels uncomfortable, you should probably not send it. Or at least wait for the morning :-).
17. Sometimes, deciding to do nothing is a decision in itself. Solutions can present themselves.
18. Have a huge party every birthday. Don't fight ageing, embrace it and celebrate being alive :-).
19. Don't criticise things without providing an alternative. If you feel angry in an argument, you're probably wrong.
20. Don't do a PhD straight after you graduate.
21. When in love in a relationship, throw yourself into it. Don't have regrets. Always tell people how you feel. It may be a car-crash at the time, but you'll learn from it and feel better about it your whole life.
22. At the end of your life, they're going to put you in a box in a hole in the ground, and that's it. Every moment of life is precious. When you're on your deathbed, even the idea of one more normal day at work will look unimaginably brilliant. Develop that feeling now.
23. Meditate. Unlearn what you have learned.
24. Whenever you think something nice about a person, say it. There's enough negativity in the world. Love your friends and tell them you love them.
25. Read books. Lots and lots of books. Read "East of Eden" by Steinbeck. You'll see why.
26. In love, in work, in life, never ever settle. It is better to be alone than to marry a person you don't truly love.
27. When giving people advice, they usually only want you to confirm their decision. Listen and talk things over. And even if you do give them advice, they'll just ignore and do what they want in the long-term.
28. Old(er) people are a great source of wisdom, but you won't take their advice seriously until you've experienced it yourself.
I never felt comfortable with people from my generation. I seemed to become friends with people older than myself. I didn't do it on a conscious level, but it happened. I would buy things like 8 person rafts, double kayaks, huge tents. Everything I planned for had another close person/girlfriend in mind.
They all passed away.
As to money, save that money you made in your 20-30's. For some reason(I think testosterone) most of the people I knew in life made the big money in their 20-30's. These were people without fancy degrees--four year degree at best.
Oh yea, you can be the best at a lot of things, and feel like you are on top of the world. You can feel like you can accomplish anything. All that can change overnight with mental illness. I had a slight nervous breakdown(not psychotic), and I went from being one of the better students in graduate school--to someone who couldn't drive to the school a week later. Life has been a struggle since. I tried therapy and it just didn't help. Prescription drugs did alleviate some of the missery, but I am now addicted to two drugs going on twenty years. There was no history of mental illness in my family. I didn't even feel stressed when I brokedown. (I did have a fear of death. I had typical worries of a twenty something year old.) I just blew a gasket. Yes, after dealing with psychiatrists who really didn't have any answers--that's what I feel what happened. I know it's rare. None of my classmates from high school/college experienced anything close to my symptomology. It did get better with time though. I usually don't tell anyone because I know it's rare. I do have a innate understanding of homelessness because of my condition though, and cringe when I hear, "You can do anything! It just takes proper planning!". Sometimes your brain just goes haywire.
I have a wide array of friends, and what I've found is some of them become mentors, and we become mentors and it can all add up to this nice resonance where we give and receive energy, perspective, help, opportunity.