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Comment by Lewton | Hacker News Reader

>Regardless, my experience was that its only value is the placebo effect. If a substance actually does anything real, and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription. For just about everything, the over-the-counter options consist of vitamins and quackery. So either blatantly break the law, or don't.

Just a counter-point. Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute. It's not what you'd normally call a nootropic maybe, but having melatonin on hand has significantly improved my life

Edit: oh. Yeah. Of course, Adrafinil is OTC in the US too and that's the prodrug for Modafinil. Definitely not placebo either

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Melatonin and DHEA are hormones and are OTC. But just because they're OTC doesn't mean they should be taken lightly. Hormones are highly regulated in our bodies and taking extra can cause decreased natural production.

Adrafinil is not OTC, it is unregulated. That means you can sell it in the "research chemical" grey market but not as a drug.

You have to distinguish hormonal regulatory mechanisms that are externally vs internally triggered if you're going to discuss decreased natural synthesis.

Oral testosterone? Pituitary measures it and says to the testicles, "we're good here" and testicles atrophy. Oral prednisone? Pituitary says to adrenals "we're good" and adrenals shut down cortisol production.

Melatonin, however, is externally regulated through blue light suppression. So taking it doesn't engage any feedback inhibition, it just increases blood concentration.

> Hormones are highly regulated in our bodies and taking extra can cause decreased natural production.

Normally true, but that doesn't apply to melatonin, it has no such down regulation mechanism.

I have a weird experience with melatonin. It puts me out quickly, but I wake up about 4-5 hours later in a half drugged state. For the next few hours I'm awake but drowsy.

If you haven't yet, I recommend experimenting with the dosage. Most companies sell melatonin in dramatically higher doses than is necessary. I take 300mcg, but often see it sold in doses an order of magnitude larger than that. Effective dose seems to vary somewhat widely from person to person.

I've been taking 1 or 2 5mg tablets. 2 tablets definitely seems like too much.

Yeah, 10mg is a crazy dose, even 5mg is far more than most people I know take. I would try out doses in the 100mcg-1mg range and see how they work.

Some people reckon that a lower dose (1mg) is more effective than 3 or 5mg. Its gotten a bit too popular, and there is tons of conflicting advice on using it.

Like others said, play with the dosage. First time I tried it, I had 2.5mg (or maybe 3mg I forget) tablets. I had a somewhat similar experience, I'd get drowsy, but when in bed I'd feel cold and couldn't sleep very well at all.

The next year I got 0.1mg tablets, experimented a bit and found that 8 of those (0.8mg) was the sweet spot for me (taken about 2 hours before I want to sleep). I generally used it in the winter, when it gets dark at 16:00, which apparently can throw my cycle a little out of whack if I don't pay attention, the melatonin seemed to help to fix this a bit.

I have to say, I've never noticed really strong effects like "puts me out quickly". Just a general feeling after an hour or two, that "yeah I could sleep". If I listen to that feeling, I sleep very well. If I stay up anyway, it goes away again, and I don't really get the benefits.

One thing I noticed, after a few weeks, was when I knocked over and broke a glass of water for the third time. I wondered, "hey that seems to happen quite a lot lately..". And always in the evening after I had taken the melatonin, so I guess it does do something to my coordination or perhaps alertness. This was easily solved by taking a bit more care where I place my drinking glass after taking melatonin :)

you might try adding 5-HTP to the mix. i had the same issue, after taking melatonin – i'd fall sleep, but wake up a few hours later. pretty much every night.

right now i take 1/2 of 2.5 mg melatonin (sublingual) with 50-100 mg 5-HTP, ideally 30-45 min before going to bed.

adding 5-HTP was A MIRACLE ! after just a day or two i slept very soundly and had AMAZING dreams – we're talkin 2160p 10.5 THX Lord of the Rings epic trilogy with you playing lead role. those first few weeks i even went to bed earlier just so i could dream longer. :) prior to that it had been decades since i remembered having any dreams. (warning though, i've told several friends about it – after they tried it they had to stop because the dreams were too intense.)

i read about 5-HTP in this book i borrowed from my chiropracter: http://smile.amazon.com/5-HTP-Natural-Overcome-Depression-In... basically it states that melatonin is only part of the sleep equation, seratonin is the other part. your body can produce seratonin from 5-HTP (which is the chemical in turkey which makes you drowsy).

also:

staring at a computer screen can really mess with your sleep – due to chemical imbalance with these hormones. to help as much as possible, i installed F.lux on all of my computers.

i also recently added Modalert to my daily routine, but that's another story...

I can vouch for F.lux. Its such an essential tool for me now and I have made it a point to get it on all my devices. Apart from the advantages it has in not disrupting my sleep cycle, I actually enjoy the warmer tones. Even when it comes to home lighting, I have always preferred the yellow shades over the incandescent whites. Never tried melatonin, either stand alone or coupled with 5-HTP. Let me read a little more. Thanks for the pointers.

As an aside, I would definitely say get your sleep cycles right and more disciplined definitely puts you in a much higher efficiency bracket. Coupled with some simple lifestyle hacks ( playing a team outdoor sport, if you are not the workout type, no devices in bedroom rule, boring but informative tech talk to go to sleep, light and early dinners, no coffee post sunset) you would be surprised how many extra hours of high concentration work you are capable of.

Never heard of F.lux before.. I just installed it and it looks great!

Did you try going back to sleep after you wake up?

Yes but its very poor quality sleep, I'm tossing and turning and not sure whether I'm awake or asleep.

> Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute.

The Mayo Clinic's website doesn't quite feel as strongly as you do about Melatonin:

> The hormone melatonin helps control your natural sleep-wake cycle. Some research suggests that melatonin supplements might be helpful in treating jet lag or reducing the time it takes to fall asleep — although the effect is typically mild. Side effects can include headache and daytime sleepiness. [0]

Another page from Mayo Clinic's website:

> Melatonin might also reduce the time it takes to fall asleep — although this effect is typically mild. [1]

I wouldn't tout Melatonin as the great counterexample of a nootropic that's OTC, considering it's questionable value and limited long-term use.

    [0] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/in-depth/sleep-aids/art-20047860?pg=2
    [1] - http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/adult-health/expert-answers/melatonin-side-effects/faq-20057874

I trust gwern's in-depth analysis significantly more than I trust a blurb from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin

The worst part about melatonin is the lack of regulation. When people test the pills available they often find different doses, or even no dose at all.

When compared to placebo, Melatonin has no significant side effects[0]

[0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/

for someone who likes melatonin but wants something stronger to aid sleep that's not medication/pills I recommend valerian root, it'll put your right to sleep reset your stress, like clearing your bodies ram.

Everything I've been able to find about valerian says that the effect is basically placebo. I got a bottle of (big-ish smelly and brown) valerian pills one time, really didn't do anything for me.

Prilosec as well. Works remarkably well, for an OTC solution.

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