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Comment by outsidetheparty | Hacker News Reader

Lots and lots of very bad ideas here -- backwards-incompatibility with previous versions of HTML is always a good litmus test that a proposal hasn't been thought through, as is "hey let's restructure everything around this one currently-fashionable design pattern". (I kind of love how he just casually embeds a SQL interpreter in the browser, too, that's a nice finishing touch.)

But the main thing is that this doesn't solve any problem that exists. We can already do everything his proposal would enable; all this does is make it more inflexible.

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I agree, I think there are real problems in modern web development, but they aren't in replacing javascript; they should be focusing on ideas like the shadow Dom that make things that weren't possible possible iMO, and leave these kinds of improvements to userspace frameworks built on their new features.

I visited the author's site in the signature (futureclaw), and it's not exactly a slick experience. Front page doesn't let me use space to scroll it; 'more fashion' page looks janky and out of order, and has a wide scrollbar that requires mouse work; click through to Coach Men's Fall 2015 and we have a page that takes forever to load, a scrollbar on the left which does nothing when it's moved; and now I notice a side-scroll at the very bottom, which scrolls me through all the pages I've visited so far (the previous issue is actually the scrollbar for the 'previous page'), including a large thumbnail page I never visited; a side-scrollbar in the middle of the page to scroll through the model's pictures, but no other controls visible...

This is definitely not the site I'd have in my signature when talking about the emerging trend of single-page apps and proposing a new standard. It's such a non-standard site, and feels clunky and clumsy.

Absolutely agree. I got that about 3 seconds into reading this. For example, I'm close to releasing a SPA application platform. Yes, that is "application" twice. This proposal doesn't square at all with what this next generation application platform is all about.

There's an "upvote" button, just to the left of the comment above.

There isn't if you have already upvoted.

You shouldn't use the upvote button for agreement.

On the other hand "+1" and "I agree" and "Well said!" clutter the forum.

How do we solve this?

The line between "upvote for good point" and "upvote for agreement" can be blurry, same for downvoting.

In either case, both are accepted uses. PG has said as much:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171

Interesting. I guess I was a bit too quick with my previous comment then.

However to me it feels a bit like discouraging alternative opinions, when they are hidden/greyed out.

Is this commonly accepted then?

Honest question: If not for showing agreement, what is the reason for the upvote button?

I thought it meant "nice contribution to the conversation". It's easy to come to this conclusion when you think down-vote means "you're not contributing". I up-voted many comments I totally disagree and down-voted many I agree (because they were unrelated to the discussion). Am I a minority?

Well, the HN guidelines[1] do not mention any rule as what constitutes 'right' voting criteria. As a regular HN user of over 6 years it feels even surreal to be in a discussion about the basic features of this wonderful platform. It's never wrong to question the basic premises of life, though(;

I do believe we have the a similar kind of understanding for when to up-vote. What is a 'nice contribution to the conversation' other than arguments or facts that 'I do agree with' in them being a nice contribution to the conversation.

I fear we would have to have a meta-discussion on the concepts of good and bad and how they are flawed in that there are no montains without valleys^^

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

what's wrong with upvoting with agreement?

Upvoting based on "this comment brings up good points and arguments" rather than "this comment says things that I think are true" helps fight against the community becoming an echo chamber.

We downvote despite "good points and arguments".

The community is in many ways already an echo-chamber; that battle was lost a few years ago. Don't let it bug you.

Isn't "good" just as subjective as "things I think are true"?

The problem isn't subjectivity, it's groupthink. "Good but wrong" posts are better than "bad but correct".

Exactly. It's not that interesting to be in a forum where people are only awarded for being in line with the popular opinion. The alternative is to award constructive contributions.

pg himself has (unfortunately) stated that the downvote button is usable to signal disagreement.

It makes sense, then, that the upvote button be used for agreement.

-1

+1 I agree.

Add a separate +1/thumbs-up button next to the arrow. It doesn't really need to do anything more than show that people are in agreement (better even if it can do it without showing numbers).

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