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Comment by jsmeaton | Hacker News Reader

My partner and I have been having an argument about rings for a long time now. I have told her that I'm willing to buy a man-made diamond, but she won't have any of it.

"I'd rather have nothing than a fake".

It doesn't matter how much information I provide her about the scam, it just upsets her. It's so very frustrating, and it's not entirely her fault. The idea is just so firmly implanted by the world.

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Just make sure that the lack of rational thinking in this area isn't present elsewhere. It's innocent enough when it's about a random chunk of mineral, but gets more problematic when it's about eg vaccinating your children.

I concur. Strong preference for diamonds is a pretty strong signal she might not be fit to raise your children.

I can assure you, she is.

I'm always a bit surprised that HN doesn't get this. The rest f this point isn't aimed at you.

Just swallow your principles and buy the ring. It's a few thousand dollars amortised over the length of the marrage. Over seven years it's like $40 a month which for a lot of HN is pocket change.

She can point to a bunch of stuff that you buy which has inflated price that you rationalise away as useful spending -- coffee from a coffee shop is a scam yet people don't think twice about it.

Edit: a word

Or, you know, don't compromise your principles to marry. Why give yourself almost certain cause for regret? Your trousers will cool off sooner or later. When they do, you'll see the matter much differently.

Sure, that's an option. A vegan should probably seek out another vegan to marry, rather than telling a meat-eater that she's wrong and has been conned by the system and that she's forcing you to buy some bullshit foodstuff that compromises your principles.

How is that equivalent? If I'm a vegan, I don't need to pressure others into my own belief system and expecting them not to eat animal food as well (I could, but I might as well not). Expecting your future spouse to buy a diamond that they think is an irrational purchase is by definition forcing your beliefs on others.

To be honest, so is not being willing to buy a diamond for your partner that wants it, but that's the point, find another person who agrees with your expectations of them.

I couldn't agree more. It might sound idealistic but I couldn't imagine being happy in a relationship where we don't agree on core principles (such as a stance on buying expensive diamonds).

Why would buying an expensive diamond be any different than buying a vintage car? Or really expensive speakers? Or any other toys the man will want?

I couldn't imagine being happy in a relationship without learning to compromise. Only the most important things should be considered "core principles", questions of religion, child-rearing, maybe hot-button political issues, and other moral litmus tests.

Whether or not she gets the ring she wants is a silly gender identity fixation, pretty harmless in comparison. If its a core principal, then so is whether or not he's allowed play video games, or buy a motorcycle, and so on. (Btw, I'm not engaged, married, nor ever bought a ring.)

The difference is expecting the other person to buy it for you. If a man expects the woman to buy him a vintage car or expensive speakers then it's the same thing.

I agree, compromise is incredibly important and it's all about finding someone whose core principles are the same as yours. For me, the thought of having a partner who would argue and resent me over me not buying an expensive diamond ring would suggest a clash in core principles. But I completely appreciate that that's my own view of it.

Just to be clear, this isn't (yet?) a make or break deal. We have a child together and have just entered into a mortgage.

I may change my mind to make her happy. She may change her mind because our financial situation has changed (mortgage). We may decide not to get married at all.

I don't consider this a core principle. Our views on the important stuff are very much aligned for the most part.

The vintage car is worth something should you want to sell it, it has some practical value if something happens to your normal car and you use it in a pinch and if you buy correctly a vintage car may rise in value over time. If you buy correctly you might be able to put 10,000 miles on a car and still see a year on year increase in its value( is it the 964RS that is currently hot in America ?)

This. Unless you can honestly tell me that you make no apparently irrational purchases. Coffee from Starbucks. Video games. Movies. I get it, you like them, they're convenient, and so they're rational purchases for you. But you can make better coffee for less money yourself, and you can be entertained for free. Compared to what you'll likely spend on these over the course of your life, compromising on a piece of jewelry your partner wants is nothing. If it makes them happy, be glad you were able to do that so easily.

God no this is terrible advice! Never compromise on your principals and especially never with a woman you intend to marry.

Coffee from a coffee shop isn't a scam because I'm paying for the accessibility, not the item itself.

If she wants to buy her own jewellery with her own money, that'd be similar to myself buying scam coffee. Unfortunately, that's not what is being proposed (heh).

Wait -- you think it's your money?

I was going to make a joke about "her money" in my comment, but didn't think it needed to be made :)

You could argue that at the point in time we are talking about, it is...

There are non-blood diamonds available. You can also look into getting an old/antique ring which at least is re-use rather than buying new.

it's more a matter of principle, whether you play along the con game like rest, or not. and no, diamonds are not expression of love, will not make marriage stronger, last longer, don't bring anything close to real happiness etc.

Agreed. I just meant, if you must.

> I have told her that I'm willing to buy a man-made diamond, but she won't have any of it.

Larger high grade colorless man-made diamonds aren't priced all that differently than wholesale natural diamonds and have the significant downside of having almost no resale value. Even if buyers pay 60% of wholesale for stones, it is still better than nothing.

Putting aside "fake" or not, unless you're buying colored diamonds, I don't see much point in buying lab made stones right now even if you're only concern is how pretty it is.

Tell me about it. Recently I've been trying so many different ways to come to talk about it and so far every one conversation ended up with her being in tears and not being able (probably not willing) to understand what I'm saying. She just sees me as a sales person trying to sell her some scam.

Now I'm betting on time, from time to time just constantly reminding her of whole rings scheme and why we shouldn't be bothered with that and should stick with a simple/traditional wedding rings.

She wants a ring. She doesn't care that you think it's a scam. What she knows is that you won't buy her a ring. You think so little of her that you won't buy her this gift.

You refuse to compromise; you refuse to budge; you refuse to accommodate her wish. You make her be for this gift, and you still deny her.

You even made her cry, and you post here almost proud of bringing someone to tears because you refuse to see things from her point of view?

I see what you mean and I agree that from her point of view this might look like I don't care about her. At least not enough to bend my principles. But on the other hand, I have mentioned this on the day I've met her first time, obviously she didn't think much of it back then.

I'm happy, not proud. I'm happy, because I'm not alone who's thinking this way. Believe it or not, there isn't a lot of people that agrees with me.

>> She just sees me as a sales person trying to sell her some scam.

This is where you are mistaken, to her it's not just a ring, or a scam. It's her as a little girl dreaming and looking at the engagement rings of other women, imagining the day she'll be able to 'show off' one of her own. Sad to say, but in our culture, this stuff means a lot.

That's exactly her argument. She has dreamed of it since she was a little girl and she just could not accept the fact that maybe, just maybe, the dream was false.

Why can one sex indulge in their childhood fantasy but the other cannot? If a guy saves for a car he has always wanted, something he saw years ago as a teen or whatever he is said to be having a midlife crisis whereas buying a lump of carbon/gold is seen as a beautiful tradition?

I think the tradition is that a man should invest a certain amount of resources. And the point is to not buy/get anything useful. A pile of money for a diamond ring is some resources.

But there are alternatives:

This guy made a wirelessly powered led illuminated ring: http://www.kokes.net/projectlonghaul/projectlonghaul.htm

This guy forged a ring out of meteorite metal: http://io9.com/5907849/this-guy-hand-forged-his-own-wedding-...

Those are both, I would say, much larger investments than $2000 to $5000 dollars in money.

"I think the tradition is that a man should invest a certain amount of resources"

Tradition is sexist then, don't be sexist

Well, if you are moderately progressive, you still want to be sexists and follow tradition, but you don't wank to sink money in diamonds. I just wanted to say there are alternatives.

Stick to your guns.

You can still get an awesome engagement ring for, let's say, $500, with no diamond, just a nice blue aquamarine or some other wonderful gemstone. Something that goes well with her eyes.

Lay it on thick. Put in a lot of effort to have it custom made. Involve her in the customizing and decision making.

But stick to your guns on the diamond. It's simply not cool.

Or find one on Craigslist but please don't buy one from a jewelry store if you can help it.

God bless!

Some unsolicited advice: Tell her it's not about the money. Tell her you want to spend it on something useful (like a future child's savings account) or fun (like a trip for two around the world) but not on a piece of jewellery.

No don't do this. Just buy the ring. Buy flowers and nice cards more often than valentines and apologies -- buy flowers when you're not in trouble.

Edit: a word

No, don't do this. Dump the woman and find someone who's not spoiled and vapid.

She probably wants to fit in with her friends/family.

Lie to her.

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