Hacker News Reader

Atreus creator here.

The Atreus was actually originally designed to be complementary to a stationary keyboard like the Kinesis Advantage or the Ergodox. Keep a big keyboard on your desk, and toss a small portable keyboard in your bag for when you're on the go and can't bear the thought of having to fall back to your laptop's internal keyboard.

That said, since I've gotten used to the Atreus I've hardly used my Ergodox; in the end I've found that having all the keys close to the home row is a lot more comfortable, and I don't like having to reach for the edge keys on the Ergodox.

You're missing one thing - a mouse easy to access, as on the thinkpad where it's in the home row. If only for browsing, a mouse is a godsend.

There's something not bad for the ergodox on https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55960.0 but it would be better on a thumb.

I believe technomancy has said he uses Conkeror, a heavily keyboard-based browser (that I highly recommend), so he has little use for a mouse :)

(As a fellow Emacs and Conkeror user, the time is rare that I have to touch my mouse.)

That's correct; I don't use the mouse for everyday computing, just for occasional game playing. The last time I used it nontrivially for work was when I did the PCB design for the Atreus.

Some custom keyboards have a TrackPoint - I don't know how well it works but I really liked it in the X220: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/tex-yoda?mode=guest_open

Oh wow. I so want that. Thanks for posting.

Me too - drop requested :)

I am a Kinesis Advantage user with ten years' experience, and agree with this.

I did buy a pre-made Atreus kit and have been playing with it. For a portable/compact solution, it is a reasonable but not full substitute for a Kinesis (basically on the go).

I think the default layer-switching choices are still uncomfortable for me, and I am looking for a better layout to stabilize.

My main interest in the Atreus is hobby-oriented, to learn how to use Plover with it: http://plover.stenoknight.com/

It all depends on your needs - if you want a better typing experience while on the go, the Kinesis is probably one of the worst keyboards for that particular scenario, and it's where the Atreus shines.

I've forked the Atreus for my own preferences (http://imgur.com/a/sCwcP), but use an Ergodox at home, and am currently working on a fork of the Ergodox for work. I'd love to try a Kinesis out, but I'm extremely happy with building my own keyboards and customizing them to my exact needs.

I have the kinesis linked above, and an ergodox, and much prefer the kinesis.

I'm personally very excited about the Matias ergo pro : http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/

Smallish, cut in half, great switches, no staggered columns (I want to stay "compatible" with my laptop keyboard). It looks just like my old kinesis freestyle but of better quality.

I did try an ergodox for a while, but instead of biting the bullet and using for a while I would tweak the keymap to infinity hoping to find more compatible memory muscle to what I already know.

It really sucks that I type "Y" with my left hand's index finger. It makes a wide variety of interesting keyboard layouts infeasible without going in cold turkey.

Any significant keyboard change will require some adaptation time.

For example, I went from a traditional keyboard to a Kinesis Maxim, which was a traditional layout but split. That required a bit of typing adjustment, like what you mention.

Then I switched to a Kinesis Classic (old version of the Advantage, PS/2 port). Now that was a pain, literally. Having to interrupt decade-old touch-typing muscle memory was annoying, and I actually experienced slightly increased pain (tendinitis) for the first several days.

Within two weeks, though, I was automatically using the new arrow key position and thumb keys (Ctrl, Alt, Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, Backspace, Delete, Enter, and Space) smoothly.

My change from QWERTY to Dvorak was even more troublesome and a bit painful. I would say it honestly took me about two weeks to become even barely functional, and a year to become completely proficient. I'm skeptical that I've ever hit the same WPM that I had on QWERTY, which I mastered while still an adolescent. Not that it matters, I just think a bit more and type a bit less now. :-)

Edit: for the record, I absolutely DO NOT advise learning Dvorak. Its ergonomic benefits pale compared to the mechanical keys, split wells, etc. Also, it means lots of key remapping for games, copy/paste shortcuts become kind of arbitrary, and so on. Stick with QWERTY, but use better keyboard hardware. Learn Colemak if you absolutely insist on the 1337-ness of 'superior' layouts.

So you switched back to QWERTY, and/or now type Colemak, I take it?

I do agree about the time it takes to get all of your old speed back. When I learned Dvorak, it took me two years to get back to full speed. But once I was there, I was there, and with surprisingly little effort. I have a couple of victories on typing tests that I was actually trying to lose to prove it.

So you switched back to QWERTY, and/or now type Colemak, I take it?

Nope. I still type Dvorak. One switch is enough.

I can type QWERTY, too. If I use a different machine, I'm able to switch over with surprisingly few errors. Also, strangely, I can't tell you where the keys are on a Dvorak layout without mentally typing the letter. I used to know the QWERTY layout by heart, but never reached the same level of mental mastery with Dvorak.

The only reason I suggest Colemak is that I've heard it's optimal for programming. I still don't think it's worth learning, though, if you already touch-type QWERTY.

My understanding is that Colemak isn't any more effective than Dvorak; it's just closer to Qwerty, which makes it easier to learn up-front.

But honestly once you get away from Qwerty there's a law of diminishing returns. The differences between non-Qwerty layouts are pretty miniscule compared to the difference between Qwerty and good layouts.

I've never had any computer-related pain (well, not since the lengthy gaming sessions of my youth), and my current typing ability is more than sufficient, so I guess my impetus to switch is tiny.

In my opinion, it's good preventative care.

The problem with tendinitis, carpal tunnel, bulged neck discs, and health issues that afflict programmers is that you don't know you're susceptible until you already have the problem. Then you're looking at months or years to fix it and learn techniques and equipment to avoid its return.

I suppose it's always possible, but I've been spending approximately a third of my time in a chair at a computer since I was 12 (I'm 27 now). Essentially everyone I know who does the same has had issues, but I never have.

Yeah, and I never had a moment's back or neck pain, despite terrible posture habits, until a bulged disc put me out of work for a long time at the ripe old age of 34. I genuinely hope you never experience any work-related ailments.

As a fellow Dvorak typer I'm a bit surprised that you've had such a negative experience with it. Therefore I'd like to share my own biased experience.

I'll agree with you on the issues with key-rebinding for gaming and copy/paste becoming more difficult. Going back to typing Azerty/Qwerty becomes a real hurdle and this might be a problem depending on your situation.

But the pain (tendinitis or carpal, I did not check with a doctor) that I experienced after only 2 hours of typing disappeared completely. That being the goal of my change I consider the change a successful one.

I managed to learn Dvorak in 2 months, with the keyboard feeling more natural and logical during the learning period. While it took me years to become proficient with Azerty (the Belgian keyboard-standard). I accelerated my learning process with a simple CLI based typing-trainer.

TL;DR: Dvorak is more difficult in regular life but it can solve pain issues. So I recommend changing to the layout for that purpose.

*edit: spelling

As a fellow Dvorak typer I'm a bit surprised that you've had such a negative experience with it.

I didn't have a negative experience with Dvorak, it's just virtually pointless when compared to the benefit of consistent, light key pressure, mechanical keys, and a physical design that suits your body.

Dvorak is more difficult in regular life but it can solve pain issues.

I don't believe this claim at all.

> I didn't have a negative experience with Dvorak, it's just virtually pointless when compared to the benefit of consistent, light key pressure, mechanical keys, and a physical design that suits your body.

One common misconception is the idea that RSI is a single thing. It's really just a loose grouping of symptoms with a similar cause. So it's very common for a remedy to be very helpful for one person's RSI and do absolutely nothing for another person's instance of it.

For instance, switching layouts is more likely to bring relief for certain kinds of pain in the fingers, while changing keyboards is more likely to bring relief when the pain is in the wrists and forearms.

I had the same habit. My typing speed fell dramatically when I first got my Kinesis, but after a week or so I was above 80 WPM again.

I just noticed I still use my left index finger to type "y" on a non-Kinesis keyboard. Strange.

I know someone who uses Colemak on matrix keyboards and Qwerty on conventionally-staggered keyboards and has no problem keeping them separate.

Muscle memory is a weird thing.

I'm a little late to the party, but I had to pipe in: my experience is identical to yours. I used the Kinesis for about two years.

Further, I did NOT use my Kinesis for eight years (it sat in its box after a move) and then I plugged it into a laptop the other day and... was astounded to find that I didn't even have to look at it to start typing immediately, even the thumb keys!

The only flaw is the row of horrible, rubbery, membrane function keys.

These horrible rubber keys are being removed in a new version which is supposed to begin "beta testing" in 1-3 months. Source: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36195.msg1424727#msg142...

As someone looking to make a purchase, it's too bad that the only way I can get any info is by trawling through some headache inducing forum. These guys have a lot to gain from proper marketing.

Oh, that's fantastic news! I've been sending them emails every few years requesting it, and they always said vague things like, "yeah, we're thinking about fixing that."

As it stands, I keep a $5 105-key cheapo membrane keyboard behind my Kinesis. Works okay for function keys, and Windows happily accepts input from multiple keyboards simultaneously (e.g. key chording).

Probably not a huge feature but the USB 3.1 connector should become the new standard this year. My guess is that every new computer will ship with ports by the end of the year.

Will still need an adapter for that large legacy port.

> IMO there is still no keyboard that has anything on the Kinesis Advantage

There are lots of keyboards that don't have the sticky modifier bug though.

There are dished wells too. Have you looked at the Maltron 3D keyboards? They also come with a numpad in the middle so you can play roguelikes.

There are multiple models, but this gives you the idea: http://www.micwil.com/images/gallery/maltron_keyboards_dual_...

Do the "wells" offer any real benefit over a regular split keyboard? Also, the idea of a split keyboard was popular some time ago. Is it still considered important? From the reading that I've done, it seems like the mechanical switches (e.g. Cherry Browns and Blues) are the big win. Rubber dome and scissor switch keyboards are just harder on the hands.

Do the "wells" offer any real benefit over a regular split keyboard?

In my opinion, yes. The keys conform to your hands, rather than the other way around.

Also, the idea of a split keyboard was popular some time ago. Is it still considered important?

Again, in my opinion, yes. Absolutely. I'm sure this varies to some degree by body size, but I find it profoundly irritating to have to shove my hands together.

Mechanical keys are great (which the Kinesis uses -- Cherry brown or red -- aside from the previously mentioned, horrid F-key row), and a few keyboards royally screwed up by purporting to be ergonomic by shape, but using really awful keys. Specifically, the Microsoft 'Natural' was an ergonomic nightmare. Every key was a simple friction post-mount, including wide keys like shift keys. This meant that you'd type along and occasionally hit a really high resistance key. This flared my tendinitis up like you wouldn't believe.

So, yes, consistent, reasonably light key pressure is absolutely critical, but in my opinion the separation of hands AND the additional employment of the strong thumbs for more than space is a great idea.

Oh, and by the way, note that on the Kinesis the arrow keys are just below the primary keys (up/down are right hand, left/right are left hand). You don't have to move your hands from their home row position to use directional keys. In my opinion, this is the correct solution to the problem that vi/vim solved by using h/j/k/l for navigation, at least for non-gaming applications.

totes agree, the "wells" is basically the key feature that makes the idea of parting with the kinesis hard for me to entertain.

They are very different ergonomically. A good friend of mine swears by it, but for me it was very uncomfortable. I have pretty broad shoulders, so my typing position in a MS split keyboard is very comfortable. The Kinesis wants my hands aligned with each other at a set distance. To do that I have to bend my wrists outward a whole lot, so they actually hurt after enough typing.

It'd make more sense to me if the keyboard was actually split in half, so that I can have the two wells be as far or as close from each other as I see fit, but as it is, the Kinesis is actually worse for my wrists than even a laptop keyboard.

No experience with it, but I also fail to see why they need what looks like 750g of dead weight plastic just to hold the two sides rigidly parallel to each other. I thought their whole point was to have the keyboard conform to your body? I could also see wanting to put a trackpad or the like in between the halves.

The Kinesis wants my hands aligned with each other at a set distance.

I just looked at my wrists and hands on my Kinesis. While, yes, the keys are aligned along a single axis[1], my wrists don't bend at all. It's not like you have to align your wrists with the keys, your fingers do the aligning.

[1] for the inner keys on each side. The outer columns are dropped down to accommodate the shorty pinky finger.

So much, yes.

I have an Ergodox at home and a Kinesis at work, and I almost universally prefer the Kinesis. I type faster and make less mistakes, and my hands seem to be less fatigued over long periods when working on the Kinesis.

Like others, I also wish the Kinesis seperated into two halves, because I think it'd be even better if you could tilt each hand out a bit. This is complicated due to the controller placement in the Kinesis, but that could be fixed through some creative restructuring. Well, that and the fact that if you screw it up, you just broke a $300 keyboard...

I've been wanting to buy a Kinesis for about 2 years now (can't find it in my country, expensive to buy and ship from overseas, among other things putting me off). I'm a heavy typist, mostly prose. Would you mind telling me your experience with it? How long have you had it, pros/cons, etc?

I consider the Kinesis to be the keyboard that saved my career. Terrible tendinitis set in during my last year of college in 1998. Keyboards were generally terrible, and I'd started using a Microsoft Natural, which is probably the worst keyboard ever made.

At my first job out of school, I'd drive my stickshift car home and nearly cry from the pain. It was really awful. I got into physical therapy, and started looking into better keyboard options. I tried the Kinesis Maxim first, since it wasn't too "weird". It was a big step up. I later tried the Classic (same style as the current Advantage) and never looked back.

Cons: horrible rubbery function keys.

Pros: literally everything else. The layout is, in my opinion, dramatically superior to the classic 104-key layout. It makes more use of your thumbs. It places the arrow keys where you can reach them without moving your hands from the home-row position.

I always keep a spare on hand and generally loan it out to friends and coworkers to try. I'd say there's been about a 50% adoption rate. Some people just can't get over the initial hump of learning how to use the thumb keys. The ones that buy a Kinesis are extremely happy with it.

By the way, the keyboards last for years. I've had a few keyswitches go bad (most likely due to my improper 'cleaning' attempts), but they can be replaced if you know how to use a soldering iron. Kinesis has even sent me several replacement keyswitches free of charge. They've got great customer service.

Good keyboards, chairs, and monitors are expensive, but in my opinion the interface between you and your computer deserves high priority on the expenditure list.

Hey, thanks for the reply. I'm planning on getting one by the next months, when a relative of mine will come visit from the U.S. Fortunately, I don't really use the function keys, maybe twice a week I'll hit one F-key that I mapped out to perform a calculation, but other than that, I have it all mapped out to the regular rows. I took typing in high school, so long ago that it was on an electric typewriter, meaning it had to f-keys - I think it was 1993. So I never memorized the f-keys, so I always got around to not using them. Just one more thing: do you have the regular keyboard, or the one with the linear key switches?

Hmm, I heard the Maltron isn't bad either: http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/dual-hand-fully-ergonom...

You should try the datahand. If you ever get a chance to spend a couple weeks with one its a real treat.