Atreus – kit to build your own mechanical keyboard | Hacker News Reader

Atreus – kit to build your own mechanical keyboard

technomancy.us

135 pointsgnocchi75 comments

That's still an electrical keyboard; it just has switches that click.

As I've mentioned previously, I restore pre-WWII Teletype machines, so I often type on real mechanical keyboards with electrical outputs. A Teletype keyboard is a motor-driven mechanism where, when you push a key, a clutch is released, a shaft revolves one turn, and, via levers and cams, contacts close and open and the bits are encoded and sent. During this time, which is about 200ms on the older machines, you cannot press another key - the keys won't move. You can't press two keys at once. Everything is mechanically interlocked. The best way to use one is to type at a steady 5 characters per second, like playing a piano.

Key travel is about half an inch, and the newer (1930 and later) models have spring-loaded green keytops with a nice cushioned spring mechanism. This provides about 0.100 inch of travel before the key lever starts to move. So if you type a little too fast, you don't blunt your fingers. The 1924 model doesn't have that; it has hard Underwood typewriter keys.

That huge key travel, combined with a low key pressure (the motor is doing all the work, unlike a manual typewriter) is rather relaxing. Teletype operators were expected to type with few errors; there is no way to backspace or correct. Full-time Western Union operators often typed "blind" on a machine with a keyboard and tape punch, but no printer or display. That's a lost art today.

That doesn’t sound much like playing a piano to me. Any song not intended for beginners will require the pianist to press multiple keys at once (called chording¹).

――――――

¹ — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chording

I think the parent was referring to typing at a steady tempo not typing with a single key at a time. I rarely type with tempo at a computer. It would be interesting (and challenging!) to try.

> pre-WWII Teletype machines

O.O

Where do you get stuff like that? eBay? Yard & garage sales?

Yes, both. There's a Model 28 teletype with all the options on eBay right now for $25.[1] But that model weighs about 300 pounds, it's in Orlando, FL, and you have to pick it up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TELETYPE-MACHINE-MODEL-28-ASR-COMPLE...

O.O

How many people does it take to lift a 300 lb teletype? And then what do you put it in, a pickup truck? Also, if you're traveling where it might be raining, how do you keep rain off of it?

> That's still an electrical keyboard; it just has switches that click.

Not even. Cherry switches are linear, they only have a plastic latch glued to them to fake the clicking sound of a buckling spring switch.

"They only have a plastic latch glued to them to fake the clicking sound of a buckling spring switch." - I do not think you understand how the cherry switches function as this is an inaccurate statement. They are often described as linear, tactile, and tactile click. The latter being the type you attempted to describe.

"A Teletype keyboard is a motor-driven mechanism where, when you push a key, a clutch is released, a shaft revolves one turn, and, via levers and cams, contacts close and open and the bits are encoded and sent." - Is it a true statement that these switches essentially open and close a contact which in turn opens or closes a circuit? If so I would argue that although probably much cooler they accomplish the same thing as cherry switches :)

> The latter being the type you attempted to describe.

From the schematics it seems that all Cherry keys have the same "mechanic" internally, the tactility is added with external plastic latches – unlike buckling spring keys, where the spring itself clicks during actuation and drives the switch.

> Is it a true statement that these switches essentially open and close a contact which in turn opens or closes a circuit? If so I would argue that although probably much cooler they accomplish the same thing as cherry switches :)

No doubt that all electrical switches, be they IBM or Cherry, are less cool than true mechanical ones. :) But there's still noticeable differences between the different technologies.

That's probably because buckling spring keyboards are patented. The patents are owned by Unicomp http://www.pckeyboard.com/

They were patented when Cherry invented them, rather. The patents are long expired.

I like the hacking/DIY aspect, but IMO there is still no keyboard that has anything on the Kinesis Advantage (or the older Classic, same layout):

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-lf-for-pc-mac/

The only flaw is the row of horrible, rubbery, membrane function keys. I don't know why, but they just won't fix them. That said, I just remap my common F-keys (Visual Studio user) to other key chords and get on with my life. The firmware allows on-keyboard remapping and macros, by the way, so my Caps Lock ==> Esc remap follows my wherever I go.

If anything, I'd rather that the separate key wells were even a bit further apart. I don't know how people can type with their wrists jammed so close together, even with the Atreus's angled halves.

By the way, on the Kinesis, the hand wells are actually dished. They achieve this using a flexible PCB that's split into separate 'fingers' for each row of keys. To my knowledge none of the 'hacker' keyboards are dished like this.

It really sucks that I type "Y" with my left hand's index finger. It makes a wide variety of interesting keyboard layouts infeasible without going in cold turkey.

Any significant keyboard change will require some adaptation time.

For example, I went from a traditional keyboard to a Kinesis Maxim, which was a traditional layout but split. That required a bit of typing adjustment, like what you mention.

Then I switched to a Kinesis Classic (old version of the Advantage, PS/2 port). Now that was a pain, literally. Having to interrupt decade-old touch-typing muscle memory was annoying, and I actually experienced slightly increased pain (tendinitis) for the first several days.

Within two weeks, though, I was automatically using the new arrow key position and thumb keys (Ctrl, Alt, Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, Backspace, Delete, Enter, and Space) smoothly.

My change from QWERTY to Dvorak was even more troublesome and a bit painful. I would say it honestly took me about two weeks to become even barely functional, and a year to become completely proficient. I'm skeptical that I've ever hit the same WPM that I had on QWERTY, which I mastered while still an adolescent. Not that it matters, I just think a bit more and type a bit less now. :-)

Edit: for the record, I absolutely DO NOT advise learning Dvorak. Its ergonomic benefits pale compared to the mechanical keys, split wells, etc. Also, it means lots of key remapping for games, copy/paste shortcuts become kind of arbitrary, and so on. Stick with QWERTY, but use better keyboard hardware. Learn Colemak if you absolutely insist on the 1337-ness of 'superior' layouts.

So you switched back to QWERTY, and/or now type Colemak, I take it?

I do agree about the time it takes to get all of your old speed back. When I learned Dvorak, it took me two years to get back to full speed. But once I was there, I was there, and with surprisingly little effort. I have a couple of victories on typing tests that I was actually trying to lose to prove it.

So you switched back to QWERTY, and/or now type Colemak, I take it?

Nope. I still type Dvorak. One switch is enough.

I can type QWERTY, too. If I use a different machine, I'm able to switch over with surprisingly few errors. Also, strangely, I can't tell you where the keys are on a Dvorak layout without mentally typing the letter. I used to know the QWERTY layout by heart, but never reached the same level of mental mastery with Dvorak.

The only reason I suggest Colemak is that I've heard it's optimal for programming. I still don't think it's worth learning, though, if you already touch-type QWERTY.

My understanding is that Colemak isn't any more effective than Dvorak; it's just closer to Qwerty, which makes it easier to learn up-front.

But honestly once you get away from Qwerty there's a law of diminishing returns. The differences between non-Qwerty layouts are pretty miniscule compared to the difference between Qwerty and good layouts.

I've never had any computer-related pain (well, not since the lengthy gaming sessions of my youth), and my current typing ability is more than sufficient, so I guess my impetus to switch is tiny.

In my opinion, it's good preventative care.

The problem with tendinitis, carpal tunnel, bulged neck discs, and health issues that afflict programmers is that you don't know you're susceptible until you already have the problem. Then you're looking at months or years to fix it and learn techniques and equipment to avoid its return.

I suppose it's always possible, but I've been spending approximately a third of my time in a chair at a computer since I was 12 (I'm 27 now). Essentially everyone I know who does the same has had issues, but I never have.

Yeah, and I never had a moment's back or neck pain, despite terrible posture habits, until a bulged disc put me out of work for a long time at the ripe old age of 34. I genuinely hope you never experience any work-related ailments.

As a fellow Dvorak typer I'm a bit surprised that you've had such a negative experience with it. Therefore I'd like to share my own biased experience.

I'll agree with you on the issues with key-rebinding for gaming and copy/paste becoming more difficult. Going back to typing Azerty/Qwerty becomes a real hurdle and this might be a problem depending on your situation.

But the pain (tendinitis or carpal, I did not check with a doctor) that I experienced after only 2 hours of typing disappeared completely. That being the goal of my change I consider the change a successful one.

I managed to learn Dvorak in 2 months, with the keyboard feeling more natural and logical during the learning period. While it took me years to become proficient with Azerty (the Belgian keyboard-standard). I accelerated my learning process with a simple CLI based typing-trainer.

TL;DR: Dvorak is more difficult in regular life but it can solve pain issues. So I recommend changing to the layout for that purpose.

*edit: spelling

As a fellow Dvorak typer I'm a bit surprised that you've had such a negative experience with it.

I didn't have a negative experience with Dvorak, it's just virtually pointless when compared to the benefit of consistent, light key pressure, mechanical keys, and a physical design that suits your body.

Dvorak is more difficult in regular life but it can solve pain issues.

I don't believe this claim at all.

> I didn't have a negative experience with Dvorak, it's just virtually pointless when compared to the benefit of consistent, light key pressure, mechanical keys, and a physical design that suits your body.

One common misconception is the idea that RSI is a single thing. It's really just a loose grouping of symptoms with a similar cause. So it's very common for a remedy to be very helpful for one person's RSI and do absolutely nothing for another person's instance of it.

For instance, switching layouts is more likely to bring relief for certain kinds of pain in the fingers, while changing keyboards is more likely to bring relief when the pain is in the wrists and forearms.

I had the same habit. My typing speed fell dramatically when I first got my Kinesis, but after a week or so I was above 80 WPM again.

I just noticed I still use my left index finger to type "y" on a non-Kinesis keyboard. Strange.

I know someone who uses Colemak on matrix keyboards and Qwerty on conventionally-staggered keyboards and has no problem keeping them separate.

Muscle memory is a weird thing.

I'm a little late to the party, but I had to pipe in: my experience is identical to yours. I used the Kinesis for about two years.

Further, I did NOT use my Kinesis for eight years (it sat in its box after a move) and then I plugged it into a laptop the other day and... was astounded to find that I didn't even have to look at it to start typing immediately, even the thumb keys!

Do the "wells" offer any real benefit over a regular split keyboard? Also, the idea of a split keyboard was popular some time ago. Is it still considered important? From the reading that I've done, it seems like the mechanical switches (e.g. Cherry Browns and Blues) are the big win. Rubber dome and scissor switch keyboards are just harder on the hands.

Do the "wells" offer any real benefit over a regular split keyboard?

In my opinion, yes. The keys conform to your hands, rather than the other way around.

Also, the idea of a split keyboard was popular some time ago. Is it still considered important?

Again, in my opinion, yes. Absolutely. I'm sure this varies to some degree by body size, but I find it profoundly irritating to have to shove my hands together.

Mechanical keys are great (which the Kinesis uses -- Cherry brown or red -- aside from the previously mentioned, horrid F-key row), and a few keyboards royally screwed up by purporting to be ergonomic by shape, but using really awful keys. Specifically, the Microsoft 'Natural' was an ergonomic nightmare. Every key was a simple friction post-mount, including wide keys like shift keys. This meant that you'd type along and occasionally hit a really high resistance key. This flared my tendinitis up like you wouldn't believe.

So, yes, consistent, reasonably light key pressure is absolutely critical, but in my opinion the separation of hands AND the additional employment of the strong thumbs for more than space is a great idea.

Oh, and by the way, note that on the Kinesis the arrow keys are just below the primary keys (up/down are right hand, left/right are left hand). You don't have to move your hands from their home row position to use directional keys. In my opinion, this is the correct solution to the problem that vi/vim solved by using h/j/k/l for navigation, at least for non-gaming applications.

totes agree, the "wells" is basically the key feature that makes the idea of parting with the kinesis hard for me to entertain.

They are very different ergonomically. A good friend of mine swears by it, but for me it was very uncomfortable. I have pretty broad shoulders, so my typing position in a MS split keyboard is very comfortable. The Kinesis wants my hands aligned with each other at a set distance. To do that I have to bend my wrists outward a whole lot, so they actually hurt after enough typing.

It'd make more sense to me if the keyboard was actually split in half, so that I can have the two wells be as far or as close from each other as I see fit, but as it is, the Kinesis is actually worse for my wrists than even a laptop keyboard.

No experience with it, but I also fail to see why they need what looks like 750g of dead weight plastic just to hold the two sides rigidly parallel to each other. I thought their whole point was to have the keyboard conform to your body? I could also see wanting to put a trackpad or the like in between the halves.

The Kinesis wants my hands aligned with each other at a set distance.

I just looked at my wrists and hands on my Kinesis. While, yes, the keys are aligned along a single axis[1], my wrists don't bend at all. It's not like you have to align your wrists with the keys, your fingers do the aligning.

[1] for the inner keys on each side. The outer columns are dropped down to accommodate the shorty pinky finger.

So much, yes.

I have an Ergodox at home and a Kinesis at work, and I almost universally prefer the Kinesis. I type faster and make less mistakes, and my hands seem to be less fatigued over long periods when working on the Kinesis.

Like others, I also wish the Kinesis seperated into two halves, because I think it'd be even better if you could tilt each hand out a bit. This is complicated due to the controller placement in the Kinesis, but that could be fixed through some creative restructuring. Well, that and the fact that if you screw it up, you just broke a $300 keyboard...

I am a Kinesis Advantage user with ten years' experience, and agree with this.

I did buy a pre-made Atreus kit and have been playing with it. For a portable/compact solution, it is a reasonable but not full substitute for a Kinesis (basically on the go).

I think the default layer-switching choices are still uncomfortable for me, and I am looking for a better layout to stabilize.

My main interest in the Atreus is hobby-oriented, to learn how to use Plover with it: http://plover.stenoknight.com/

It all depends on your needs - if you want a better typing experience while on the go, the Kinesis is probably one of the worst keyboards for that particular scenario, and it's where the Atreus shines.

I've forked the Atreus for my own preferences (http://imgur.com/a/sCwcP), but use an Ergodox at home, and am currently working on a fork of the Ergodox for work. I'd love to try a Kinesis out, but I'm extremely happy with building my own keyboards and customizing them to my exact needs.

I have the kinesis linked above, and an ergodox, and much prefer the kinesis.

The only flaw is the row of horrible, rubbery, membrane function keys.

These horrible rubber keys are being removed in a new version which is supposed to begin "beta testing" in 1-3 months. Source: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36195.msg1424727#msg142...

As someone looking to make a purchase, it's too bad that the only way I can get any info is by trawling through some headache inducing forum. These guys have a lot to gain from proper marketing.

Oh, that's fantastic news! I've been sending them emails every few years requesting it, and they always said vague things like, "yeah, we're thinking about fixing that."

As it stands, I keep a $5 105-key cheapo membrane keyboard behind my Kinesis. Works okay for function keys, and Windows happily accepts input from multiple keyboards simultaneously (e.g. key chording).

Probably not a huge feature but the USB 3.1 connector should become the new standard this year. My guess is that every new computer will ship with ports by the end of the year.

Will still need an adapter for that large legacy port.

Atreus creator here.

The Atreus was actually originally designed to be complementary to a stationary keyboard like the Kinesis Advantage or the Ergodox. Keep a big keyboard on your desk, and toss a small portable keyboard in your bag for when you're on the go and can't bear the thought of having to fall back to your laptop's internal keyboard.

That said, since I've gotten used to the Atreus I've hardly used my Ergodox; in the end I've found that having all the keys close to the home row is a lot more comfortable, and I don't like having to reach for the edge keys on the Ergodox.

You're missing one thing - a mouse easy to access, as on the thinkpad where it's in the home row. If only for browsing, a mouse is a godsend.

There's something not bad for the ergodox on https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55960.0 but it would be better on a thumb.

I believe technomancy has said he uses Conkeror, a heavily keyboard-based browser (that I highly recommend), so he has little use for a mouse :)

(As a fellow Emacs and Conkeror user, the time is rare that I have to touch my mouse.)

That's correct; I don't use the mouse for everyday computing, just for occasional game playing. The last time I used it nontrivially for work was when I did the PCB design for the Atreus.

Some custom keyboards have a TrackPoint - I don't know how well it works but I really liked it in the X220: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/tex-yoda?mode=guest_open

Oh wow. I so want that. Thanks for posting.

Me too - drop requested :)

You should try the datahand. If you ever get a chance to spend a couple weeks with one its a real treat.

> IMO there is still no keyboard that has anything on the Kinesis Advantage

There are lots of keyboards that don't have the sticky modifier bug though.

There are dished wells too. Have you looked at the Maltron 3D keyboards? They also come with a numpad in the middle so you can play roguelikes.

There are multiple models, but this gives you the idea: http://www.micwil.com/images/gallery/maltron_keyboards_dual_...

I'm personally very excited about the Matias ergo pro : http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/

Smallish, cut in half, great switches, no staggered columns (I want to stay "compatible" with my laptop keyboard). It looks just like my old kinesis freestyle but of better quality.

I did try an ergodox for a while, but instead of biting the bullet and using for a while I would tweak the keymap to infinity hoping to find more compatible memory muscle to what I already know.

I've been wanting to buy a Kinesis for about 2 years now (can't find it in my country, expensive to buy and ship from overseas, among other things putting me off). I'm a heavy typist, mostly prose. Would you mind telling me your experience with it? How long have you had it, pros/cons, etc?

I consider the Kinesis to be the keyboard that saved my career. Terrible tendinitis set in during my last year of college in 1998. Keyboards were generally terrible, and I'd started using a Microsoft Natural, which is probably the worst keyboard ever made.

At my first job out of school, I'd drive my stickshift car home and nearly cry from the pain. It was really awful. I got into physical therapy, and started looking into better keyboard options. I tried the Kinesis Maxim first, since it wasn't too "weird". It was a big step up. I later tried the Classic (same style as the current Advantage) and never looked back.

Cons: horrible rubbery function keys.

Pros: literally everything else. The layout is, in my opinion, dramatically superior to the classic 104-key layout. It makes more use of your thumbs. It places the arrow keys where you can reach them without moving your hands from the home-row position.

I always keep a spare on hand and generally loan it out to friends and coworkers to try. I'd say there's been about a 50% adoption rate. Some people just can't get over the initial hump of learning how to use the thumb keys. The ones that buy a Kinesis are extremely happy with it.

By the way, the keyboards last for years. I've had a few keyswitches go bad (most likely due to my improper 'cleaning' attempts), but they can be replaced if you know how to use a soldering iron. Kinesis has even sent me several replacement keyswitches free of charge. They've got great customer service.

Good keyboards, chairs, and monitors are expensive, but in my opinion the interface between you and your computer deserves high priority on the expenditure list.

Hey, thanks for the reply. I'm planning on getting one by the next months, when a relative of mine will come visit from the U.S. Fortunately, I don't really use the function keys, maybe twice a week I'll hit one F-key that I mapped out to perform a calculation, but other than that, I have it all mapped out to the regular rows. I took typing in high school, so long ago that it was on an electric typewriter, meaning it had to f-keys - I think it was 1993. So I never memorized the f-keys, so I always got around to not using them. Just one more thing: do you have the regular keyboard, or the one with the linear key switches?

Hmm, I heard the Maltron isn't bad either: http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/dual-hand-fully-ergonom...

I've been eyeballing this for awhile now. The keyboard layout is so ingenious. The ergonomics are derived from ErgoDox. The only thing missing is a version where it is literally 2 halves of a keyboard which would make it more portable and essentially a smaller version of the ErgoDox. Seems like a great project for an amateur electronics engineer too.

Sigh, if only I had the time, money and skills.

You could try something like this, but (a) you can't get it yet, (b) even when you can, somebody will be building it for you, and (c) its thumbkeys may prove insufficiently avant garde: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

Me? I'm waiting for one that doesn't have half its keys missing :(

If you want a smaller version of the Ergodox, you could try two OneHand keyboards: http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/onehand-20-keyboard-t6617... It's a really neat design, but you'd have to source all the parts yourself.

That said, most of the convenience advantage of the Atreus over the Ergodox comes not from its smaller size but its one-piece design. You couldn't place two OneHands in your lap and type from there; it's a lot more difficult to stabilize if you're in bed, on the couch, etc.

I like mechanical keyboard. The past few months, I build a GH60[1] open source mechanical keyboard. And the ErgoDox[2] also an amazing open source ergo mechanical keyboard.

Now, I plan create my own keyboard, some features i want: 1. Bluetooth supported (BLE) 2. Integrating Gestures Sensor. It supports left, right, up, down, wave, etc. It means I can control my app without mouse. 3. Ergo, same as ErgoDox 4. The main board which consists of BLE IC, power management etc is separate from the Keyboard PCB.

Any advice?

[1]: http://blog.komar.be/projects/gh60-programmable-keyboard/ [2]: http://ergodox.org/

This looks very nice to combine with the Novena: http://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop

I just got a Novena in the mail a few weeks ago, and today I assembled the switches of a Phantom keyboard [1] that I'm working on. Glad to hear that someone else has the same idea-- makes me feel less crazy!

[1]: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Phantom_instruction_guide

I've built and am currently using an Atreus, open to questions.

Are there any good kits or exact instructions/part lists?

you can grab a full kit here: http://atreus.technomancy.us/

but it's pretty easy to source the parts, see https://github.com/technomancy/atreus/ (which also has links to build instructions)

Are you using it for writing codes ?

honestly, I still struggle with it a bit (a month or two of casual usage, mostly English text, some C, some Python) and I've tweaked the layout a few times, but I think it's a lack of familiarity rather than a more fundamental issue like not having enough keys/needing several layers.

I don't think my brain will ever accept a non-QWERTY keyboard layout, but I admire people with the compulsion and skills to try things like this.

Has anyone tried using this with an iPad + USB connection kit from Apple? How's the power draw?

Most keyboards are hit & miss for me (Poker draws too much power, and so does HHKB 2 Pro. Older pre-shine Ducky on the other hand works fine. Matias Laptop Pro is fine over BT but rather chunky). I would get this in a heartbeat if it would mean I could reduce my mobile hardware list to just a 4G iPad and an Atreus.

Another good option for DIY keyboards is the Planck http://planckkeyboard.com. I'm typing on mine right now and quite enjoy it. Here's my build log: http://imgur.com/a/fWAvM?gallery

Big fan of hackable mechanical keyboards. I built the Ergodox recently and it was pretty straight forward to put together and program layouts. I like the idea of a more portable mechanical keyboard because I end up bringing my keyboard back and forth to work :-)

If you want to design your own keyboard layout and get the CAD files automatically generated, check out this tool: http://builder.swillkb.com/

I wish MS would sell a version of their ergonomic kb with To pre switches. I prefDr the MS layout over some of the more extreme layouts.

Once I tried To pre switches nothing else compares.

If I ever have real RSI issues that might change.

I have an erdgodox at home and really miss it when I work at cafes, I'm kind of paranoid about something that doesn't have []{}(), etc on the may layer though.

Atreus creator here.

While it's true that most keyboards have [] on the main layer, {} and () already require shifting on a conventional keyboard. The Atreus layout uses fn to hit these keys instead of shift, but apart from learning a new location, it's the same number of keystrokes. (There are no keys that require fn and shift to hit.) The only difference is that these keys on the Atreus layout are much closer to the home row, making them quicker to hit accurately.

As long as I'm not using my right pinky for every key and its shifted mother :)

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