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Comment by comex | Hacker News Reader

Chrome isn't your average application, though - it pioneered the modern use of tight process sandboxes in general (in client-side applications, anyway), and in particular was the biggest motivating client for (and Kees Cook on Chrome OS Security wrote some of the code for) seccomp-bpf, the ~3-year-old sandboxing mechanism that allows precise control of permitted syscalls and syscall arguments. The incompatibility here is related to a new seccomp feature. I don't know whether it's reasonable to drop support for older kernels, but it's no surprise that Chrome is using the latest and greatest in kernel sandboxing support.

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Chrome certainly didn't pioneer anything. Google devs brought seccomp-bpf to the kernel, which is a simpler alternative (but also not always as useable) to many other mechanisms.

Chrome is one of the first products on linux with a large amount of users to support a reasonably strong sandbox. But that's not what pioneering means.

Of course, seccomp-nonbpf, selinux and quite a few other mechanisms have been around for a longer while. In non-Linux kernels in fact, there are FAR more secure mechanisms (but also, they don't run Linux binaries..)

There is no stable sandboxed browser protecting against kernel vulnerabilities on any platform that I know of prior to Chrome. That's the very definition of pioneering. Do you have an example of prior art? There may be sandboxing mechanisms in various kernels, but that's not what browser users care about.

As for the other points:

* "seccomp-nonbpf" is a vastly more limited mechanism than seccomp-bfp, and inappropriate for Chrome use-case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seccomp. seccomp-bfp is pioneering in Linux kernel space, even if, ironically, the team might not have wanted to spend their time there. See below.

* Popular consumer distribution of Linux doesn't have SELinux enabled by default. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SELinux. "SELinux can be enabled in Ubuntu by installing the "selinux" meta-package". In my bubble we everyone uses Ubuntu on desktop, apologies to other distributions vying for the title of "popular consumer Linux distribution".

* Not sure why we are talking about security mechanisms on non-Linux kernels. Chrome is a browser, the team's job is not to innovate in the kernel space. http://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/sandbox. "Do not re-invent the wheel: It is tempting to extend the OS kernel with a better security model. Don't.".

if you give enough details you'll always find a way to work around words. For example if i ship a copy of webkit with my ui on top with a sandbox I'll pioneer that. Or a shell. Or a text editor. Or whatever you want. A blue wheel of 29.0349in on a bike. etc.

I'm not sure why I'm even replying sometimes.

> Of course, seccomp-nonbpf, selinux and quite a few other mechanisms have been around for a longer while. In non-Linux kernels in fact, there are FAR more secure mechanisms (but also, they don't run Linux binaries..)

You're quite confused. SELinux, AppArmor, SMACK, etc. do not overlap with seccomp-bpf which exists to protect the kernel itself. Chromium has a working sandbox with or without seccomp-bpf based on a chroot, namespaces and IPC protocols. It needs seccomp to mitigate kernel vulnerabilities, which are not at all uncommon.

they actually do the control in a very similar way. its the model of how the control is decided that differs. in other words, they're all blocking syscalls depending on the arguments/syscall name/etc. LSMs and seccomp-bpf alike.

So no, I'm not confused :)

What comex meant is Chrome pioneered the use of seccomp-bpf. And indeed, Chrome is by far the application using seccomp-bpf in the most advanced way.

Chrome did? IE7 shipped with pretty tight sandboxing in 2006 — and Chrome was only announced in 2008!

well let's see. in 2014 there were 214 code exploits in IE vs 4 in Chrome. I don't think IE's sandbox can really be considered tight

http://www.cvedetails.com/product/9900/Microsoft-Internet-Ex...

http://www.cvedetails.com/product/15031/Google-Chrome.html?v...

Still doesn't change the fact that Chrome did not "pioneer" sandboxing.

If the pioneer dies before he gets to california, he doesn't get the credit.

There is no Windows sandbox (including the Chromium one) that's comparable to the quality of Chromium's Linux implementation.

Note that seccomp is a layer on top of the layer-1 sandbox implementation based on a chroot and namespaces. There is no equivalent to the layer-2 sandbox used to protect against kernel vulnerabilities on other platforms.

Only on Vista and later though.

Google invented sandboxing in client apps? I don't know who's more arrogant - Google or their fawning fanboys.

Google created seccomp-bpf which is crucial to a meaningful sandbox and has no equivalent on other platforms. It was not an obvious innovation or it would have been done years earlier. It exists because someone paid by Google to improve Chromium security had the epiphany that BPF would be a good way to filter system calls.

Isn't seccomp-bpf similar to OpenBSD's (failed) systrace? Both are basically filters for system calls if I'm not mistaken.

Calling comex a "fawning fanboy"? That's ballsy for a throwaway account.

Wouldn't comex be the "Google" in the comment, rather than the "fanboy"?

comex doesn't work for Google.

Claiming that Chrome pioneered sandboxing doesn't pass the smell test, irrespective of how many Google employees (according to your profile) are backing you up.

No one is claiming that Google invented sandboxing. You should stop lying to push your bias because it only makes you look foolish.

But do you know who comex is? People sometimes are not exactly precise and sometimes make mistakes too.

  But do you know who comex is?

I didn't, and it was not that easy to find out, but I was curious. He is Nicholas Allegra and he is known for jailbreaking the iPhone. See http://www.androidbeat.com/2013/04/google-comex/ and http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/08/01/meet-co.... He went on to work for Apple and now for Google, apparently on the Chome or Chrome OS teams.

Damn, now honestthrowaway looks even more foolish. I can understand why he used a throwaway now.

On the flip side, chrome is also one of the tools used to convince people that web should somehow be equivalent to native. Which, really, just doesn't make any bloody sense.

If web pages were content to showing web sites, the vast majority of the motivation for heavy sandboxing, Chrome style, would be irrelevant.

You have code running on your computer for rendering the content. Historically, pictures (GDI+ buffer overflow, and others) and .pdf files has been used for exploiting bugs in that code. Sandboxing would have made that a non-issue, or at least less severe of an issue.

It's still a serious issue even with a sandbox, both because of the endless stream of kernel vulnerabilities and similar issues in userspace processes the sandboxed processes communicate with to get work done.

Chromium's use of seccomp-bpf is solely to crack down on kernel vulnerabilities, as it's an additional layer over a sandbox already providing all of the security boundaries they need. It moves things along pretty far, but there are still at least 1-2 holes found every year.

It's definitely an improvement over browsers like Firefox where there are at least 3-4 unmitigated remote code execution vulnerabilities fixed every six week cycle...

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