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Comment by acqq | Hacker News Reader

And this picture which is actually on huawei site as the part of the promo (!) illustrates the best why Jony Ive said (1) that "a circle doesn't make any sense" for a smartwatch:

http://consumer.huawei.com/minisite/worldwide/huawei-watch/a...

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1) http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/23/shape-things-co...

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Ive also blasted the Moto X for offering so many customization choices and shipped a watch predicated on massive customization.

Let's get one thing straight. Apple lambasts everyone else's designs until they adopt them.

Recall that:

1) Mini-tablets are too small to be usable, you'd have to "file down your fingers to use them"

2) Large screen phones are a) things people don't want and b) don't fit your hand properly. Remember this Thumb commercial? http://9to5mac.com/2014/09/09/the-iphone-5-ad-that-apple-wan...

3) Customization and Widgets in the OS are bad, until iOS 8 gets them

4) Johnny Ive on Moto Maker ("“Their value proposition was, ‘Make it whatever you want. You can choose whatever color you want,'” Jony was quoted as saying in the interview. “I believe that’s abdicating your responsibility as a designer.”") Even BGR noticed this hypocrisy (http://bgr.com/2015/02/19/apple-watch-customization-jony-ive...)

There's many more incidents to this list, but it's typical Apple behavior to pooh-pooh things about competitor products or features right up until the point that they ship them. Then the entire world must pretend that prior to Apple, no one did it, or didn't do it right.

Apple always has and always will talk down the type of products that it doesn't sell.

Although, I do think they were on to something when they said that large screen phones are too big for your hand.

Ironically I didn't buy an iPhone 6 and moved to my first Android for this reason. It's actually quite difficult now to find a decent spec phone that comfortably fits an average sized hand. Even the 'mini' phones have quite a large footprint. Ended up with a Sony Z3 Compact and I'm pretty happy with it so far (nearly 2 days battery life is awesome).

I similarly ended up with a Sony Z3 Compact. The ultra stamina mode is excellent. It shuts off all extraneous circuitry and you have to reboot to start up again. Meanwhile you're left with a minimalist greyscale screen with essential functions and a estimate of battery left. It's too optimistic I think but it will happily tell you there's ten days charge left on ultra stamina mode if you started with a full battery.

Me three! The camera and flashlight are disappointing (my 3 year old 4S was brighter), but aside from that I really like the Z3C. I'm not exaggerating to say I've gotten 3 days of battery life without touching Stamina Mode or Ultra Stamina Mode.

I've gotten more use out of my compact than my surface pro 2, ffrom day one. I think this little phone is more usable and certainly faster for browsing. ( opera for word wrap rules!) and I simply feel it's faster, renders faster, LTE when I have signal better than consumer FTTC !

Not having wanted a android phone particularly ... a Lumia seemed right for my use and Microsoft centric world... I didn't lose the great maps just downloaded Nokia Here , still have office and one note... And outlook. Oh and I got Opera browser which is for word wrap just indispensable.. All in all a bargain. But I really am almost using this phone for every task but design and code so I've not gotten more than a day and a half yet... Still amazing for it being picked up constantly and running about five apps simultaneously standard .. and I got it on a wicked deal bundling 20GB data so I'm in clover! I feel bad like I'm shilling especially as I forgot my older login here but it's such a neat package all I want is a sweet little repl with loads of libraries and great auto predict to play with this thing...

Do you think Apple is not capable of making the round watch? It's obvious that they really evaluated the possibilities, saw exactly the effect nicely illustrated on the picture, and decided to sacrifice the "roundness" this time. The same people that insisted on rounded corners at the times when it was costly (1) to make them. A concious decision, not something that competition does better. I fully understand you though if you prefer the round smartwatch.

1) 1981: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Round_Rects_Are_E...

Of course! All of that is completely correct.

The point is that Apple often attacks other companies who make different trade-off decisions.

Remember how they rubbished the idea of larger phones and said what a terrible idea that was? Turns out that it wasn't a terrible idea - there's a whole set of people it is better for.

Most hours of the day, I wish I hadn't upgraded my iPhone 5S to a 6 -- but I understand the superficial "pull" of the bigger screen is almost impossible to avoid, which is why I still use the 6.

Believe me, there will be a iPhone 7 Mini. The 4 inch size is just too sensible to abandon.

Believe me, there will be a iPhone 7 Mini. The 4 inch size is just too sensible to abandon.

This is precisely the point.

There is such a diverse set of requirements that different outcomes depend on the priority you give to each one.

All too often Apple denies this in the quest for the "one true solution".

Apple has offered their "one true solution" in many sizes before in the past; it's hardly unprecedented.

I remember at the time when Steve Jobs said that no one will want a colour iPod. That was the first time I stopped and thought - really???

Some serious sales technique the way Apple waits to add colors for a product and then makes it seem like a big innovation. I love apple and use their products all the time but never understood the lack of colors initially for a company that is all about thinking different.

> Apple lambasts everyone else's designs until they adopt them.

Everyone does this.

It wasn't long ago that Samsung was laughing at Apple for moving the headphone socket to the bottom. Guess where it is on the new S6.

The real question is: does a company adopt a competitor's design because experience in the real world ultimately proved it to be the better design -- or are they adopting it superficially to defensively diminish perceptual marketing differences?

To be fair, basically every major corporation and most people do this. I can think of a half dozen Google examples just from my time there, and more than a few Facebook ones too.

I think what's unusual about Apple here is:

1. How vehement their condemnation is (especially since, in retrospect, they're already busy working on exactly what they're condeming),

2. How quickly and comprehensively they flip the story when their version is ready and

3. How predictable this pattern is for them. Given past experience, I almost expect Apple to be working on actual toaster-fridges in a skunkworks project somewhere (in addition to the metaphorical ones I'm positive they're working on).

What's the alternative, though? They don't want other companies to know what they're working on, so they say "no" to something until they have it ready, and then they say "yes".

There's a difference between saying no ("we think larger buttons on our bigger screen are easier to use" or whatever) and mockery ("you'll need to file down your fingers"). Apple could do one without the other.

I understand why Apple uses mockery (better publicity, more memorable, firing up fans, etc.) but, at a minimum, Apple (and their defenders) should expect well-earned mockery in return, especially given their pattern of flips.

I can't think of any instances of them vehemently condemning anything as a company. Some executive making snarky comments at a press event doesn't count, even if it spawns a gazillion outraged Reddit comments, and even if those snarky comments come from a co-founder of the company who was not known for his tact. In any event, just because an executive makes an abrasive comment about something doesn't mean that the other tens of thousands of people who work for that company shares those views.

Heck, I can't remember the last time they had an ad or even a press release attacking a competitor. I guess the "I'm a Mac" ads were a type of attack ad, but even those were intentionally not mean-spirited, and that was years ago anyway. Their competitors are frequently much more confrontational in their ads.

You seem to be basing your view of them on a particular narrative which relies on assumptions about their motivation and character, i.e. "OK, maybe everybody does that stuff, but they do it for reasons that make them bad people!"

Don't forget "Redmond, Start Your Copiers" hung from banners draped all over WWDC one year. That was pretty juvenile.

Why don't you say it counts?

Ive or Jobs rubbishing other design choices is precisely what we are talking about here.

It's designed such that you can quickly decide with a glance "am I interested in this". A wall of text simply wouldn't be appropiate.

If you are interested, after all, you swipe up and can read the text just fine.

I think being limited to only square designs is short-sighted. We just don't need a laptop in a small form factor, but a new way of interaction. Hopefully, TTS and ASR with proper dialog management will remove the need to read small messages.

as a moto 360 owner its hardly a problem. I can tell right away if its something I want to read in a glance, in this context from the picture alone. I'll immediately dismiss it, otherwise I'll scroll up for more information. Even with gmail notifications, this is not a problem.

I think this entire quote by Ive is similar to Jobs argument, that 3.5" is perfect size or 10" tablet is the perfect size.

My thoughts exactly.

Stuff at the bottom is quick, short notifications anyway. Want more details? You'd scroll up anyway.

Works fine for me - in fact, I was pleasantly surprised how well the thing works. I used to think smart watches were a gimmick, now I'm a believer. The 360 rocks.

As an owner of the Samsung Gear Live (square) and Moto 360 (round) second this. The picture posted there is the preview of the actual message and it provides enough context to decide whether you want to swipe it up or not. Whether the message is truncated uniformly at the bottom or at some pieces to the sides doesn't make any difference in practice.

You can scroll that card to see the rest of it. I fail to see how this is a problem.

And, in fact, scrolling the card is exactly how it works for a square Android Wear watch too. The only difference is that (with the possible exception of ugly word-wrap cases), the truncation is only vertical, not horizontal as well. Considering how much has to be truncated on a watch screen anyway, I think it is hard to make the argument that the square interface works and the circular one doesn't.

You have to scroll the text up nearly halfway just to see the beginning of the lines. That means most of the space on the screen is wasted because I can't read lines that are not right in the middle of the screen.

That's the first thing my eyes jumped to, I am a bit surprised that they didn't pick a nicer looking `view`, instead of one with awkwardly truncated text.

I'm going to guess that the last line, the one with the truncated text, says "Youtube, it's awesome" in full. Context is pretty powerful; this doesn't seem like a bad image at all: to me it demonstrates precisely that a circular face isn't a problem.

Because they didn't bother rethink/adapt the UI (yet).

Still doesn't make much sense. The vast majority of text humans read is displayed on rectangular surfaces.

So? The vast majority of automobiles humans drive are powered by the combustion of gasoline, but that in and of itself doesn't make a plug-in electric car impractical.

I agree that some things need to be reworked in order to better suit a non-square display, but with the exception of the Facebook demonstration, I thought all the other pictured use-cases were rather brilliant and nice-looking.

Majority isn't a good argument you know. Let them explore. Personally too thick and square watches repel me, and I don't intend to read Shakespeare from my wrist either. 2 'full length' rows at the center are probably enough text to read.

The problem lies within the Android Wear UI, not the smartwatch itself. I hope they will "fix" that, now there is another round watch available after the moto360.

This takes a page from Metro's (now Modern UI) truncating semantics: if it's truncated, it means there is a continuation and you can scroll it.

if in fact it is a problem, it is a software problem

Can you not scroll?

Yes, you can scroll.

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