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Comment by marincounty | Hacker News Reader

I won't get into the efficacy/need for ticket cameras, but I will share something I have thought about for a long time.

A poor-middle class guy gets a ticket, and it can affect their ability to pay rent.

A rich guy get's a ticket and he tells his wife over dinner.

How about tying your first ticket(reasonable mistake--like a California stop, etc.) to income, but only every 5 years. If poor person get's another ticket in five years all fees go back to normal levels?

There would be upper limits on ticket price, so millionaires wouldn't be gouged too much. I think they tried this in Switzerland, but the law didn't have upper limits for the wealthy? Some guy got a $100,000 ticket--which is crazy!

A $500 ticket can really cause pain for students and the poor? I have thought about this since I was sixteen?

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Some countries (eg. Australia, can't comment on others but I'm sure there's many), in addition to the monetary fines, have a demerit point scheme. Each offence gives you a set number of points (eg. 20km/h over might be 3 points, drink driving I think is 8-10 points, etc), and if you accumulate a certain number of points over a three year rolling period (24 I think in my state), then your license is suspended/cancelled. So you might be able to afford the tickets, but if you do it more than a few times then you're still stuffed.

New York has the same thing. 11 points in 18 motnhs and you lose your license. Violations go from 2 points to 11. Speeding 1-10 MPH is 3 points, 11-20 4 points, 21-30 6 points, 31-40 8 points, and >40 or 11 points. The full list is at:

http://dmv.ny.gov/tickets/about-nys-driver-point-system

Though I expect the speed cameras are not actually giving out points. They don't for the red light cameras. You need a "real" ticket from a cop to get points for that.

Also, depending on the part of the state if you hire an attorney, then there is a good chance you'll get any points reduced. You might even get a parking violation instead and just pay a fine. In NYC, being able to plead and get a reduced point sentence is less likely than in other jurisdictions.

> Though I expect the speed cameras are not actually giving out points. They don't for the red light cameras. You need a "real" ticket from a cop to get points for that.

Correct! At least where I live, since points are tied to your license and the cameras can't accurately identify who is actually _driving_, this is the result.

The ticket is delivered to the owner of the vehicle, but they can't prove it was you driving the car at that time so there is no point penalty.

I agree. Tickets tied to income would be much better. Also, tickets IMO should be tied to insurance. As you do stupid things on the road, your insurance rate should rise (again, maybe proportionally to income), until you just can't afford to drive anymore. From my experience, poor middle-class drivers are actually very wary of insurance costs. My very close friend attributes insurance premiums as her primary reason for always driving safely.

They are already (in certain states) via the point system.[0] Getting a point tells your insurance company, and your premiums skyrocket. Insurance companies also pull your driving record periodically, and if you've had a ticket, the same thing happens.

[0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_system_%28driving%29#Nort...

"A poor-middle class guy gets a ticket, and it can affect their ability to pay rent."

Working class people in NYC can't afford cars whether they violate the law and pay fines or not. I don't know how it works in places that require everyone to own a car because there are no alternatives, but NYC has good walking and transit.

I'm not sure that ticket is crazy. Having fixed price tickets disproportionally punishes the poor. Having them based on income seems much more fair. $500 may be worth more to someone who can barely afford gas for their car to get to their minimum wage job than $100,000 is to a guy who can't decide which yacht to buy.

The fine ought to float to make the person reconsider their behavior. If that's $100 for a cabbie and $10000 for a hedge fund manager, then great. The problem is, the income disparity in the city is immense.

When I lived in Boulder, we had a 3-4 month period in the winter where water usage was the "base usage" for the rest of the year and if you went over that, i.e. in the summer, you got nailed a higher rate for water consumption. So it was a got scaled system, whether you were a single person or a family, you were paying an affordable base rate always and including in the summer, but if you watered your lawn, you paid a much higher rate for the overage above base.

So what you'd need to avoid having to invent a new layer of bureaucracy to NYC is something like that. "Zones" based on your NYC income tax for example (yes NYC has city income tax) to base your traffic fines on. So, it'd be a course granularity, not exactly fair within each zone, but overall it'd make everyone "wince" and change their stupid behavior that risks others' lives unfairly. The speeding thing gets my goat, but running red lights is like - you should lose all your registered cars, your license, and get massively fined. You run red lights you should stop driving. Idiots.

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