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Comment by jacquesm | Hacker News Reader

I wrote a post that answers some of your questions right this morning:

http://jacquesmattheij.com/the-army-of-the-new-independents

Best of luck!

I charge $100/hour and I had extremely hard time finding work for last two years. Primarily because most client's think I charge way too much. I live in Los Angeles! Last year I worked at a mid-size multinational tech company as iOS developer at a $700/Day rate. The manager probably told me 100 times that I am very expensive and they have to let me go after project is over. I am not sure if companies are spoiled by offshore low rates or something else is going on. If Plumbers are making $100/hour, why do they think Software Developers should be cheaper than that!

As a freelancer , after making 1/4 of what I can make as Full-time developer I am going back to the full-time Job.

If they have to let you go after the project is over - that's obvious, that's kind of the expected result of a successful consulting or freelance project.

If they complain that you're very expensive - that's also reasonable; if they wouldn't be complaining then that would be serious evidence that you're not charging as much as you can/should.

The pricing logic is simple - customers don't buy = too much; customers don't complain = too little; customers buy but complain about price = price is just right. This is the same across industries, no matter if you're selling IT services, potatoes, cars or haircuts.

I've always wondered why freelance developers compare to plumbers/electricians. You will hire the plumber for 3-4 hours of work and that's it - he'll be on his way. But we will be there for days/weeks/months.

I agree in charging as much as you want if you can solve a problem noone else can. In ~2002 a company had serious database issues with reporting queries running for over 24 hours. So they hired 2 people who charged 600 pounds each an hour. They both worked on the problem for 2 days and brought down the execution time to 3 minutes. In that case yeah, I think they can charge as much as they want.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a developer as well and I know the difference between a 40/h and a 80/h developer. But I believe an hourly rate must depend on how long you'll be working on that project, what you'll be doing as well and how critical it is.

Did you read the blog the original commenter wrote ? I was responding to that blog.

$/unit-of-time rates are always going to be seen as expensive by many clients. Charge by value. Plumbers are worth what they charge because of the value of stopping the shit overflowing onto the floor.

The other thing to keep in mind is that software developers, especially mobile and web, are making easy money. Naturally this is attracting a lot more people to the field, which by simple supply/demand economics will cause average compensation to decline. Clients will compare your hourly rate to these "averages" and question why you are so expensive. If you bid projects based on an understanding of the value the client perceives in the project, the client will feel more comfortable with what they are paying and also be unable to directly compare it to anything other than competitive bids for that specific project.

Well its hard to explain value when you can't put it in numbers. Web developers/SEO consultants can easily calculate their contribution by increase traffic. What can an iOS developer do ? Most of my work goes inside an App making it highly robust and smooth performance. But you can't put a number on it. People don't appreciate contributions that stop bad things from happening rather than creating visibly good things.

That's strange, a rate of $700/day makes a salary of roughly 170k/year, which I suppose if above average for Los Angeles, without being exceptional. Since he's not gonna employ you for 1 year, it seems to me pretty a pretty fair rate you are charging.

Great post. I'll add that it's not a good idea to talk to employed friends about your rate. Their advice will be bad advice, and they'll find your rate shocking, because they ignore all the considerations that Jacques points out.

Wow, what a load. Health insurance is a scam for the over-socialized. Why don't you have food insurance as well? I freelance BECAUSE I don't want to participate in the insurance industry. I freelance for the specific reason of dodging all of the silly bull that twits now expect from the nanny state. I can only hope my actions undercut the fools that voted for this crap.

I sincerely hope that you're never going to be in a position to eat your words. Best of luck if you do.

I hope you truly see nothing wrong with paying for (and forcing others to pay for) someone's sugar addiction, cellphone conversation while driving, smoking or drinking addition, otherwise I hope you DO enjoy the nanny state stepping in to solve this future problem by further telling you which activities and addictions you can becoming involved in.

Those are far from the only causes of health issues. The 'nanny state' will save your precious ass too if you ever should need it, even if you never use sugar, only call using lamp post connected payphones, do not smoke, do not drink and so on.

Yet living responsibility has clearly put me into a different cost bracket as opposed to the useful idiots. I've never been to the dentist, have straight cavity-free teeth, and never needed to see a doctor aside from once, where I paid cash. The only wrecks I've been involved in where the other driver's fault. I was reimbursed $1100 for a '89 prelude with a brand new engine and perfect body/chassis (less than 90k miles). It was a ripoff in every sense. That was my benefit for paying for uninsured motorist. The driver that hit me had no insurance, no driver's license, and no papers for the van. In fact I'm pretty sure she was high on prescription pills at the time. I would have rather saved the years of paying insurance, and had enough to buy a brand-new car.

When you consider how much insurance money (all taxpayer money) goes to the chronically obese, diabetic and generally unhealthy people of america, verses all the payees, perhaps you could see your point has no bearing with me.

The funny thing is, your (evidently) supported system will pay for me anyways in an event of the unexpected, as well as cutting me huge benefits in how much it'll cost as a result of having no money on the books. Enjoy.

The hospital will check's your income and account balances respective to your credit and work out some price they think you can actually pay. I watch my (health) uninsured friend's car accidient go from 80k to 20k when they had around 80k in savings. The prices are over-inflated because of the insurance industry, but don't let me stop anyone's religious belief in this ridiculous social system.

(1) it's not as if the USs system of health insurance is the only option for more or less affordable health care for the masses

(2) you are lucky because (1) you were born in the right place (2) at the right time (3) have good marketable skills

One day about a decade ago I fell through the cracks in all the systems in spite of having paid for healthcare my whole life long and never using it up to that point, my gall bladder gave out and I paid for the operation out of pocket. No big issue for me. But I do realize that what was 'no big issue for me' would have been a huge issue for lots of people around me.

As for the insurance system: I prefer the system the way it was here before, where all healthcare is simply paid out of taxes rather than through commercial compulsory insurance. Though the tax based system has some inefficiencies it is definitely preferable because there are less opportunities for companies to enrich themselves at the expense of the service level in public healthcare. The differences between then and now are remarkable, people go without treatment for months to push the deductible to the next year and then end up with far worse issues than they had before.

On the whole, about 10 steps back.

Anyway, I hope you live a long, happy and healthy life.

Luck has nothing to do with genetics or the history that created them. Any system that requires the coercion of subjects to submit against their will for it to be successful (it isn't and will not be) is a foolish approach to an individual's struggles through life. No one should order me to care about every drug addled fool on the street, it's not my concern. Nor is it my concern that some people cannot figure out what a healthy diet is, or how to build a marketable skill. I grew up in a bum-fuck nowhere and got into programming without college, schooled at home and no connections to the industry. I know enough immigrants to know this is possible for anyone working hard. I grew up with a 486 in the age of Pentiums because my father invested. Your ideas are trite and old, constantly disproved. But keep holding the large stick and acting like you're not trying to control other peoples lives, it will end up driving this country apart.

You may have a low risk profile and good health, but if you ever need medical care you'll be spending less money on it if you have insurance. Theoretically insurance companies operate by charging you a rate around (or slightly higher than, to buffer for business overhead and risk) your expected cost. Unfortunately in America, insurance is an unusually "good deal" for consumers because it gives you access to the insurance company's price leveraging. Meaning, the bottom line cost of the procedure (at "insurance rate") will be significantly discounted from what you'd pay with cash. Thus, companies grant insurance based on the rates they pay.

Here's a more thorough explanation.

https://alecstapp.wordpress.com/2013/06/13/should-bill-gates...

I worked for an insurance company for over 5 years. You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. None.

Well then please enlighten him/me, I do think the insurance business is a scam as well (in France).

Never in my life has it been worth it, and I'm outraged to know it is sometimes required by law (you can be fined, by a cop, if you car isn't insured for example).

> I'm outraged to know it is sometimes required by law (you can be fined, by a cop, if you car isn't insured for example).

And rightly so. Or are you able to pay out-of-pocket for any car or truck with cargo that gets totaled because you cause an accident? What about damage to individuals causing them to spend a life bedridden or in a wheelchair?

Or are you 100% sure that you will never ever cause an accident?

I'm pretty sure that of all the people that will have car accidents today in France quite a few of them got up in the morning thinking exactly like you and the majority of those (assuming they survived) will have a change of heart by 12 O'clock tonight.

Wow, so you didn't bother reading what I typed about my accident earlier. I'm sure people that disregard the law completely will just suddenly start paying for insurance and you'll never have to bother, say, paying more for uninsured motorist. So once again, if you want insurance, pay for it, don't act like involving the law suddenly fixes everyone's problems.

Just another example of the short-sighted mentality of the supporters of more laws and enforcement.

I'm still +12, so I have a bit more "karma" to burn before I create another account. Thanks for the fun guys.

... and as a reflection, take your tongue-in-cheek-"I hope you stay healthy"-shit and shove it. Everyone dies you ignoramus.

I am also not a fan of insurance. But then I am not a fan of a lot of things that exist because most people won't do what needs to be done to make those things largely irrelevant. I think if you are in a position to arrange to meet the need in question some way other than insurance, it is in your best interest to do so. But my opinions of car insurance are far more favorable than my opinions of, say, health insurance or life insurance.

If you don't want to pay car insurance, in some states in the U.S. you have the option of putting up a bond as proof that you can pay for the damages if you hit someone else's car. The GP is giving a big double birdie to his responsibilities. He says he does freelance work precisely to tell the world to fuck off. So I seriously doubt he is pro-actively arranging to protect other people from his lack of responsibility. He is exactly the kind of person the insurance industry and laws requiring car insurance exist to protect you from.

Last, I gave up my car several years ago and gave up my driver's license nearly three years ago. If you find car insurance so objectionable, you absolutely can opt out. No one is going to force you to own a car at gunpoint or drive. If you are so committed to saying "fuck you" to insurance, you are more than welcome to do as I do and arrange your life such that you can mostly walk everywhere (or bike or take public transit). And if you aren't willing to do that, then I have zero sympathy for your complaints in this regard. Car insurance is completely optional because no one is required to own a car.

Your comment has reference to nothing useful to the conversation. None.

With respect, neither do your comments. Your opinion that health insurance is "useless" does not improve the conversation, because it is incorrect, close minded, and may mislead people.

Haha, does not improve the conversation according to you because? Is incorrect because? Close minded because? Misleads people from the truth only you know? You should pull your head out...

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