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> few proposals from feminists

This is ludicrous. Womens' rights activists have talked about this since the beginning and often. Women have been explicitly banned from almost all sports that are associated with men only for most of their existence. There have always been women who wanted to play. This is slowly, slowly changing, as activists continue to fight for it, tooth and nail. Their gains are quickly assimilated and forgotten.

It is not the case that sports would need to change. This is an old canard. Remember, all normal distributions have tails and pro-athletes, whatever their sex, are in those tails. Up until recently, women couldn't ski in the Olympic long jump because it was believe it would damage their reproductive systems. Wonder who was writing the rules?

http://thesocietypages.org/sexuality/2010/01/09/reproductive...

Womens' rights activists have talked about this since the beginning and often.

Really? Who has said that our society would be better off if the NFL or NBA were replaced by some other league that offered any opportunity whatsoever for women to compete at the highest level?

There have always been women who wanted to play.

Of course! I certainly didn't intend to imply otherwise. In fact I've spent much of my time playing and watching stuff like the horse sports and kendo, which in all important respects women play just as well as men. I've also heard this about distance swimming. Perhaps ski jumping is another such sport? I don't know it well enough to say, but if it is, or if it can be made so, I'd say that it will be better for our culture to have more of it.

A better solution might be to create new sports that allow men and women to compete together rather than to change existing sports. Fans of existing sports are often very opposed to change for many reasons not least of which is that changes hamper the ability to compare athletes and teams over history. Many an hour has been spent having those arguments...err...discussions.

Motorsports are about the most even, but consistent winning is probably another generation out since car time is so important.

> It is true that many sports would have to change in fundamental ways to allow women and men to compete together at the highest level. That isn't really an excuse, though, is it?

A very good point. But on the other hand, entrenched fields of endeavor are hard to change regardless of the social issues involved. Business, politics, and software development are fields where women always have had the physical ability to compete equally, but change is very, very slow.

Seriously asking, what opportunities are denied to women in sports?

Is there a single woman on any of the teams in any of the leagues listed at the following?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_lea...

It's a list sorted by revenue. Female sports don't make a fraction of what male sports do. Female's in general are not as interested in sports as makes are. Whether cultural or not is debatable, though I imagine at least a large part of it is. However, a list like this is not proof that women are not allowed the opportunity, only that, when given the opportunity, they have failed to capitalize on it. Look at the WNBA.

I of course admit that the argument can get circular. Current culture -> unsuccessful female sports -> reinforcement of current culture.

EDIT: Care to comment? What about this is factually incorrect?

They get paid less; they don't get to set their pay; but it's somehow their fault that they get paid less?

It's the same for men in fashion. It is just a matter of market value. We are talking about opportunities here, not how valued they are.

You can talk about whatever you want. When I kicked off the thread, it was to point out how the structure of sports in our society puts women in a ghetto, in ways that e.g. the admittedly imperfect tech industry doesn't even approach, and yet sports get a complete pass on this. Even many outspoken feminists settle for Title-IX-style resource-grubbing rather than challenging the basic structure of the ghetto.

Any argument you might make defending the sports status quo would have applied to any sexist cultural institution ever. Case in point: every single sentence in the comment to which this is a response.

I guess we are talking about very different things. I am talking about opportunities in sports, not about the state of the sports industry.

The men's basketball medal counts just the same as the women's in the Olympics. They both had to train and practice the same to get to that point. That's all I care when I think about opportunities.

They get paid less because they work in a much smaller market. Does it also upset you that stage actors make less than AAA movie stars?

People are not blocked from being AAA movie stars on the basis of their gender.

Right, because they have the physical capacity to compete. In the NFL, the NBA, the MLB, etc., they don't. They just plain don't. If that confuses you then go take it out on God or biology.

If that is true why not let women try out for it?

Because at best it's a publicity stunt and wastes the time of all involved? Do you really think that a woman can compete with men on a football field? C'mon. Even the women in these sports laugh at the idea.

Is there a single man on the list of highest paid fashion models? http://www.forbes.com/models/

What exactly is your point?

It is because the men are behind the curtains making the actual money:

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-15-wealthiest-people-in-f...

(Note: everyone there is a white old dude, other than the two women, who inherited the money from white old dudes)

Being noticed at all at the top level? What is the difference between the price payed for an ad at the men's superbowl, versus an ad at the women's superbowl?

Really? Since when do we live in the era where "being noticed" is a right?

What is next? Affirmative action for TV time during the Superbowl or the World Cup?

The difference is that millions of people watch men's football.

Most high schools and colleges dedicate a very small portion of the sports budget to women's sport as opposed to men's.

No this is completely wrong. Look up Title IX.

It's the reason the university I went to e.g. had a women's swim team but not a men's team.

Actually, they don't, but the male sports, particularly football, do pay for the female sports.