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Comment by megaduck | Hacker News Reader

I strongly disagree. While living in China I encountered horrific racism and sexism, both widely accepted as community standards. There was a human cost to those "standards", and I grew to believe that we should all be held to a certain standard of behavior, regardless of our national origin or cultural identity.

Disapproval of the current situation is how progress gets made in the world. There was a time in this country when slavery was widely accepted and women weren't allowed to vote. Those were the standards of the day, and they were only shifted because a vocal minority stood up and cried out, "This is wrong!".

Somebody always has to be the first to raise the bar.

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There are many examples of things in Taiwan accepted by society in general that make me cringe or feel embarrassed about about or induce even stronger feelings.

The thing about the Taiwanese though that I think makes Taiwan very different from many other places is their agility and willingness to adapt. I believe the most rapidly changing attitudes come due to commercial and business links - Taiwan is completely dependent on its export market.

Attitudes such as racism as sexism ARE changing in Taiwan, but there is an incredibly strong cultural influence that may impede that, but I think it's mostly coming from a healthy interaction with other countries that have established those ideas or enshrined them in their own laws.

There is a small, but growing groundswell of appreciation for all kinds of humanitarian rights based on gender, culture, race and other subjects but these things do take time. Shaping other peoples culture and attitudes is a very sensitive topic.

> I grew to believe that we should all be held to a certain standard of behavior, regardless of our national origin or cultural identity.

I guess this is just where we differ. I don't belive that one way of living is inherently better than another; or that I have some moral imperative to make others behave in a way that I see fit. Of course, I'd love them to, and if asked the reason that I act differently, I'd be happy to explain.

I used to feel the way that you do. It's easy to get caught up in the "of course, slavery is wrong! Of course, sexism is wrong!" But then it slowly starts to bleed into "of course, we have to spread Democracy to Iraq," "of course, we have to make laws that gay people can't marry"...

Moral superiority is how wars start. By making others' ways of life into the literary Other, you're demonizing the very people you're trying to convince.

This is very easy to say, as someone privileged enough not to be affected by the issue, and you're making an insane leap to say that criticizing routine discrimination "is how wars start" or somehow imply that it leads to banning gay marriage. It looks like you're missing the difference between suggestion and coercion and, as far as "making others' way of life into the literary Other" goes, well, I think a great way to do that is to assume that everyone is choosing to engage in sexism rather than uncritically going along with the status quo.

> as someone privileged enough not to be affected by the issue

Yes, my position in life certainly has an effect on the truth value of my statements.

> you're making an insane leap to say that criticizing routine discrimination "is how wars start"

Moral absolutism causes problems. "I'm better than them" causes problems. I'm saying that morality is not cut and dry. You're treating it as though it is.

And it's certainly why people fight to ban gay marriage. Don't you see that, "Women find stripping offensive, it drives them away, don't let that happen" is the same thing as "We find homosexuality offensive, we can't let that happen"? Those who feel they're on the moral high ground will do all kinds of things to impose their morals on others.

> It looks like you're missing the difference between suggestion and coercion

In this case, you may be suggesting, but other comments here are certainly imply coersion.

> assume that everyone is choosing to engage in sexism rather than uncritically going along with the status quo.

You're assuming that the woman there are offput by the 'strippers,' and that's why they weren't attending the conference. I'm merely pointing out that that may not be the case at all.

Other people still have problems even if you refuse to acknowledge them - and your position in life does matter simply because you've never been forced to acknowledge those problems' existence.

> Don't you see that, "Women find stripping offensive, it drives them away, don't let that happen" is the same thing as "We find homosexuality offensive, we can't let that happen"?

Well, sure, if you misrepresent the problem your argument looks better. Our argument is quite simple: don't demean people. Demeaning women? Bad. Demeaning gay people? Bad. Getting upset about the inability to use your religion as a justification to demean people? Tough luck.

> You're assuming that the woman there are offput by the 'strippers,' and that's why they weren't attending the conference. I'm merely pointing out that that may not be the case at all.

Note that no one here is saying Yahoo should be shut down, hack day stopped, etc. The only thing people are saying is that there should be a clear message that this behaviour is wrong - and that we should be encouraging everyone to recognize and refuse to participate in it. Conference strippers aren't the only reason why the gender ratios are unequal but the attitude has gone a long way towards making our field unattractive to anyone who doesn't fit a rather unenviable stereotype.

>Our argument is quite simple: don't demean people. Demeaning women? Bad. Demeaning gay people? Bad

This is an empty argument because those who oppose gay marriage would not accept the assertion that it is demeaning. You could just as easily claim that allowing gay marriage is demeaning to heterosexuals. But let's pretend everyone agrees it is demeaning. Isn't it acceptable to demean someone (fines, imprisonment or other punishments) when someone makes some type of transgression? In the case of gay marriage, the moral transgression would clearly permit some of this.

Moral relativism is equally as tired as absolutism.

Hiring strippers for a technology event is a simple question of social graces, class, and creating an inclusive environment -- not morality.

Go go dancers are not really racism and sexism, though. Maybe you could argue about the sexism, but still, I think you are creating a straw man argument here.

Edit: if women don't like it, why do they work as go go dancers? Don't tell me they are being exploited, because for example cheer-leading seems to be highly desirable to middle class high school girls (judging from movies and MTV documentaries). I don't think they are all slaves or drug addicts.

"Don't tell me they are being exploited, because for example cheer-leading seems to be highly desirable to middle class high school girls (judging from movies and MTV documentaries"

I'm sad that I don't think you're trolling...

a) The issue here is that objectifying women, at a tech-corporate-sponsored event, is damaging and embarrassing for those of us who want the community to be more welcoming to women. Not about whether dancers are being exploited.

b) Cheerleading is not lap dancing any more than ice skating or swimming is.

c) Stop judging entire groups of people based on what you see on MTV.

"The issue here is that objectifying women, at a tech-corporate-sponsored event"

No that is not what I was replying to. I personally would not like a tech event with go go dancers either. I just think it was drawn out of proportion to compare it with racism and slavery.

And sorry, but cheerleading is almost the same as go go dancing. From the photos, I didn't get the impression that the dancers were actually stripping. Again, I don't want to defend the use of it at a tech event, but it annoys me that there is the assumption that all women would automatically have to be offended. in fact, many men would also be offended - some would like it, some would be offended. In general it is a bad idea to organize an event like that. But I think the reactions are blown out of proportions.

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