Comment by ANTSANTS | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ANTSANTS | Hacker News Reader

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>Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and you'll also see bookcase after bookcase of manga totally appropriate for all ages with young girls pressing their nose into them. Stories about teenage girls getting picked on at school or trying to meet the right guy or saying stupid things in class. Stories about girls who are in bands and office workers and every possible thing.

I, uh, read a lot of manga intended for teenaged Japanese girls. The ironic thing is, a lot of times even the manga intended for girls is mildly sexualized to please members of the peripheral male demographics, yet the original female audience doesn't run away screaming in response. Guys enjoy "girls comics," and vice versa, and growing up around female anime and manga fans, I never really questioned it. Stories about girls trying to choose between a group of handsome suitors, or stories about guys surrounded by improbably attractive women. Cutesy slice-of-life, or ultra-violence. Ones with boobies and panty shots out the wazoo, or ones with homoerotic undertones... we didn't care, we watched it all together.

Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something.

This is such a good post, its shameful the HN political correctness crowd have downvoted it so. I don't think HN is a mature enough forum for this discussion. Its just a reddit-like upvote/downvote gamificiation machine at this point.

I find it amusing that American culture dictates that once you become 18 you are now sexualized and free to partake of whatever media you like, but an hour before your birthday you are an asexual being with no interest in things other than what the political correct types dictate.

A lot of this stuff is aimed for the 14-18 group where puberty kicks in. Yes, there are boobs and bulging crotches! The characters sometimes have sex! I know, its crazy! It almost reflects the hormonal madness of puberty.

The problem is American culture is so damn puritanical that not only have we dismissed this kind of art as victimizing, if not illegal, that we pretend that the status quo of this level of censorship is fine. Puberty will find a way. Kids will date, fuck, get high, etc. Why our art needs to reflect some kind of Judeo-Christian 1950s ideal is beyond me. Heaven forbid kids that age are represented as how they truly are or art they want is aimed at them. Or that, heaven forbid to SJW types, that most people don't have a problem with traditional gender roles. A manga about a girl trying to get a boyfriend shouldn't cause a social catastrophe. Its fine.

I think this kind of thing is a legitimate social panic, the same way people were obsessed with Satanism in the 1980s. We're going to look back at these ultra-politically correct attitudes today and wonder why we were so worried about displaying traditional roles, sexuality, and violence in fiction.

I like your post, but I'll just say that nobody I know personally would care about displaying traditional roles, sexuality, and violence. When people get pissed I think what they're mostly pissed about is the ridiculous caricaturization that occurs. For instance, a movie with tons of ass-kicking makes you feel excited. Realistic portrayals of violence usually makes you feel sick and horrible. Similarly with sex and gender roles. Much could be said on the topic, but my feeling is that too much of the caricature-fiction produces similar effects as eating too much candy. It's fine in small quantities, but not something to organize your diet around.

In fact, I'd be interested to see who's getting upset about realistic portrayals of anything. Even with the caveats about what would count as a 'realistic portrayal' I think you'd be left with a tiny minority of weirdos and chronic pains-in-the-asses.

I think you and ANTSANTS have both missed the point of the article. It's not about puritanism, though there is plenty of that to be found in American culture. It's about objectification.

Objectification literally means treating a person like a thing. An example of objectification would be a "damsel-in-distress" character with no personality of her own, that exists only as a "reward" for the hero after his struggles. The characters in these comics are not objectified, they are sexualized. They are designed to be sexually attractive, often sporting revealing outfits and exaggerated proportions, but they are still characters with their own personalities, motives, agency, strengths, weaknesses, struggles, and stories. The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem.

If you have problems with your elementary school aged kids seeing sexualized images of women, maybe you shouldn't be buying them comic books about Batman beating criminals into pulps either.

> The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem.

No, I think you're quite mistaken. Japanese culture is even more male-chauvinist than American culture. Gender roles, while loosening a little in recent years, are still extremely rigid. How long do you think it will be before Japan has a female Prime Minister? 50 years? 100?

The presentation of girls and women in fiction is part of the culture, both reflecting it and playing some role -- probably not small -- in perpetuating it. The relentless, unceasing portrayal of sexualized women characters sends the message that the value of women is in their sexuality -- not their intelligence, their emotional perceptiveness, their leadership qualities, or any of hundreds of other positive attributes I could name and that women, like men, possess in varying degrees. That drumbeat -- inescapably present in American culture as well as Japanese -- is heard clearly by both girls and boys, and shapes their attitudes about gender roles.

I'm not trying to play cultural superiority here. Most cultures on this planet have a problem in this area, and the US is no shining exemplar. But holding Japan up as having particularly healthy gender psychology is rather naïve.

And there is such a thing as sexual objectification. If they're such strong characters, then wouldn't they still be as interesting and appealing if physically portrayed as small-chested and straight-waisted and wearing loose t-shirts and jeans?

The truth is that their character depictions are made rich IF doing so serves the story. But their physical portrayal serves no purpose except titillation. (And don't get me wrong, titillation has it's time and place and we could argue forever about whether its overwhelming prevalence in superhero comics is that place.) To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

> Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something.

It is absolutely offensive when it is posed in an unreal and unnatural way with impossible proportions and impossible looks.

I get that they are comics, but a story about super girl where she has a perfect 36-24-36 with Tripple F boobs that are molded and sculpted and pointed so far north you could almost navigate by them...it...it is a bit ridiculous.

Fun to look at, yes, but they don't offer much other than a fantasy.

Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful in combat, and maintain much greater body fat levels to provide energy reserves in tough situations. Is Batman "offensive," or is exaggeration a basic element of art?

[1] http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Batsuit-Reveal-...

[2] http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1223/mma_2011best_29.jpg

[3] https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/f4/81/3cf4816e3...

I hate to respond with an image macro, but in summary: https://i.imgur.com/MMdocdc.jpg

Two things:

1. killertypo is talking about the way /women/ are portrayed in comic books — not men. He may think the way men are portrayed is wrong as well, so bringing up Batman makes no sense.

2. The way men and women are portrayed is vastly different. Male superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to be, women superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to have sex with. This wouldn't be such a big deal if this wasn't the norm.

Check out the Hawkeye Initiative [1], Hawkeye is drawn the way female characters are drawn. Notice that you never see comic book heroes drawn that way unless they're women.

[1] http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

Again, I hate to respond in image macros, but the idea that women don't find men like Batman or Spider Man attractive is bullshit.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/258/9/6/tumblr_mtg09c...

(what do you know, the comic that image mocks was written by a guy...)

I'm sorry, but things like the "Hawkeye initiative" are just plain stupid for completely overlooking the differences between male and female sexuality. Look at the romance novel covers above and try to tell me they wouldn't look absolutely ridiculous with the genders swapped. It reminds me of sites like "Escher Girls", a collection of "boobs and butt" poses in art that the bloggers think are "anatomically impossible" and "disturbing", despite being absolutely trivial for men and women to perform alike.

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/

http://pirate-cashoo.tumblr.com/post/26538269244

https://twitter.com/kinucakes/status/552353978378633218

And judging by the number of female comic book character cosplayers, I think it's safe to say that quite a few women "want to be" these characters, sexualized or not, as well. Women have created strong, sexualized, camp characters like Bayonetta explicitly as female power fantasies, but that never stops a certain band of puritanical American feminists from branding them as "offensive" symbols of the patriarchy.

http://platinumgames.com/2009/04/17/designing-bayonetta/

http://xbox360.gamespy.com/xbox-360/bayonetta/1013849p1.html

http://platinumgames.com/2014/06/27/character-design-pt-1-ba...

Sexuality isn't the problem. Whatever you find sexy is whatever you find sexy and there's nothing wrong with that.

The problem is when media gets sexualized to the point where children grow up thinking only one way of looking at sexuality is the right way. It creates body image-related traumas that get reinforced in places like schools where kids are often taunted for not having the 'right' type. This should be fought whenever possible.

Let's try this again.

Your initial argument was essentially "but men are sexualized too!" And that was irrelevant, because we're talking about ladies.

That comic you posted actually sums it up pretty well, super heroes are drawn as male power fantasies. Also notice I never said anything about women finding Batman unattractive, the problem is that women are drawn almost exclusively to please just men. (Look up male gaze)

If I started reading romance novels, then I too might give a damn if my gender is normally portrayed in certain ways. But I read comic books and found myself enjoying the ones where women get to be people to.

>Check out the Hawkeye Initiative [1], Hawkeye is drawn the way female characters are drawn. Notice that you never see comic book heroes drawn that way unless they're women.

OR unless you're reading Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.

http://theglorioblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/jojos-bizar... -- pictured: some kinda Aztec vampire thingy eating some poor soul

Damn, I really should have included JoJo as an example of straight male manga fans being totally cool with ludicrously flamboyant male characters.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121201210751/jjba/image...

http://animebot.everyboty.net/pix/2994.png

Bishounen is quite popular in Japan, many studios often use this art style, as well as female and male mangaka.

Also "Aztec vampire thingies"? Kars and his lot are the progenitors of mankind.

No, the Pillar Men are a prehistoric cousin-species that couldn't withstand UV light and ate both humans and ordinary vampires. The Aztecs worshiped them as gods, and Cars' attempt to mutate himself into an even-more-super superbeing was what created the Stone Mask.

(Yes, I do remember far too much, far too easily about fine details of anime stories.)

Yes, of course the portrayal of men is oversexualized and problematic. Next question.

"Problematic?" Why is that? Straight women and gay men enjoying beefcake aren't hurting anyone.

the portrayal of men is just as dumb and unrealistic. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy comics quite a bit (Infinity Guantlet anyone? Planet Hulk? World War Hulk???)

I think hyper sexualization of any gender is stupid and serves more as softcore porn than anything.

It is just slightly more offensive to women who spent a long time in our history being told "Well maybe you shouldn't have worn that dress and he wouldn't have hit on you the way he did."

BUT HEY before this gets out of hand, it is equally as degrading as putting down a man for "Well if your wife hits you and you just take it, your a little b()."

There has to be some give and take on this issue, it is not so clearly black and white.

I'm a big enough adult to recognize it's just stupid to think I can change comics and how they are drawn. Maybe if there were a bit more selection for my daughter so she could ease her way into it though? That would be pretty cool.

We're talking about creating a business out of an existing business.

Not getting rid of what we have, at some point you have to accept the reality of the world we live in. I don't want to strike down comic books, but it would be cool if they had a bigger selection for my kids (who would love to enjoy what daddy is reading, but they can wait until they're more mentally/emotionally/physically developed before being exposed).

http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/01/16/9-incredible-examples...

here is a great example of how to make interesting and compelling art without drawing your females as hyper sexualized pieces of meat.

Sans the DBZ one, which is -okayish- but still debatable.

The men are sexualized too. Just not in the hyper masculine sense.

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