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Comment by po | Hacker News Reader

I can already hear the debate raging about weather or not the images or particular examples in this article are acceptable or defensible or not. I think it's totally fine for the comics that this one shop has are there. Artistic freedom! Great! What's not super is that it's really the only kind. It's like netflix with only action movies.

This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that don't exist. Those are the problem. It's ok to have super sexed-up comics in the store, but it's really sad that's all they have.

Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and you'll also see bookcase after bookcase of manga totally appropriate for all ages with young girls pressing their nose into them. Stories about teenage girls getting picked on at school or trying to meet the right guy or saying stupid things in class. Stories about girls who are in bands and office workers and every possible thing.

I think the comic industry, video games, tech, and geek culture in general are all going through growing pains as they find adoption in a larger market. We need more articles like this helping people realize what a "normal" comic shop could look like. The comics we have today would still be in there, there would just be more variety and the market for comics would be healthier.

It's actually a better scenario for everyone.

View on HN

>This article should feature a bunch of blank photos representing the comics that don't exist. Those are the problem. It's ok to have super sexed-up comics in the store, but it's really sad that's all they have.

It's a vicious cycle. Comic book stores sell products that appeal to adolescent men, because their customers are adolescent men, because comic book stores sell products that appeal to adolescent men.

You can easily find English-language translations of the kind of Manga you describe, or of Franco-Belgian comics, but most American comic book stores won't make any effort to stock them, because they don't expect to sell them.

Here in Europe the comics market is more diverse, but that's as much an accident of history as anything else. For "normal" comic shops to exist, you need both a tradition of "normal" comics and a market for them, neither of which really exists in the US. You had Stan Lee and Siegel & Shuster, we had Hergé, Franquin and Peyo, and from there we diverged.

Amazon and online retail are actually a huge sociological problem in this context. If you can just order manga you like, and form bonds w/ online communities of folks w/ similar tastes on tumblr or twitter or wherever, what's the incentive to go to a physical place in your town?

Gaming stores have reinvented themselves as places to play games with others, but it'd be an interesting challenge to reinvent comic shops in that same way.

In the New England area, I think Newbury Comics has done a good job of reinventing itself -- it wasn't ever (in my memory at least) just a comics store and made a lot of its money from music for a while, but if you go in there now it's got some movies, music, a comic section/room, but it's mostly other stuff -- merchandise from trendy games, shows, movies etc. Funny/quirky gifts, toys, jewelry, etc.

Maybe doesn't appeal to die hard comic book fans, but it's a fun experience for the casual shopper, which makes it viable. My 12 year old is always excited to stop in there.

I know exactly how you feel. For the past year, my main gaming rig has been on another continent and I've been making do with what I could play on a cruddy little netbook running Linux.

It's probably been my best year of gaming ever.

I've been an old west robot prospector.

I've seen a man have sex with a giant goldfish.

I've tried to get a mouse to wear a hat.

I've consoled a grieving child.

After all that was done, I got a small amount of my hardware back and I killed some zombies. That was awesome, too. In fact, it was more awesome than it had been in a long time, since the variety had removed a great deal of the staleness.

It's the same with comics. I want to read a comic about a gay college student coming out to his parents. I want to read a comic about a goat that's also a political prisoner. I want to read a comic about a child learning to cope with the death of a parent. I still want to read a comic about a preternaturally buxom woman throwing a bus, but I want to read other things, too.

Great point. Indie games are good for helping you realize how much hard work goes into triple-A games and can really help you appreciate them again with fresh eyes (and totally more affordable on the hardware front! :-)

The indie game equivalent are web comics. There are really well made and interesting ones out there, although finding them isn't always easy. For some, printed versions are also available.

Also there is Image, Oni Press and Vertigo.

Humble Comics Bundle 2, 'Image firsts' is currently running a good deal for anyone wanting to check out Image:

https://www.humblebundle.com/books

Image doesn't really work for daughters.

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/savage-dragon/18-1.jpg

I saw that cover in a comic store in my 20s, and it made me do a "what am I doing with my life?" reaction.

Well, that's something of an edge case given that Erik Larsen originally came from DC & Marvel, so he has that over-the-top exaggerated anatomy style, but yeah it's indefensible.

Most of the newer Image stuff is really mature and has some fantastic female role models, see for example Lazarus, Shutter, or Copperhead, all have strong female leads.

I'm not familiar with Image anymore, but I remember Jim Lee's Wildcats and it was generally "supersexy females with ridiculous breast implants". And they had a couple more superhero teams, whose names I can't remember, which were similar to Wildcats in this regard.

Gen13. It's possible that it was meant as irony in just how far you can take cheesecake.

(Jim Lee got bought out by DC, so those characters are all part of DC continuity now.)

Also there are lots and lots of small press publishers out there.

Just off the top of my head there are: * First Second * Drawn and Quarterly * Fantagraphics * Koyama Press * Top Shelf * NBM

Going to have to second this.

There's a whole range of comics catering to those more esoteric (and often quite boring, frankly) storylines, and a good many of them have books for sale.

Check out Something Positive (terrible people), Stand Still, Stay Silent (kid friendly but a little dark, beautiful art), Dumbing of Age (ugh, but some people like it), Vattu (kid friendly, nice art, coming-of-age), Schlock Mercenary (goofy, sometimes a little mature but kid friendly), Gunnerkrigg Court (female protagonists), or any of several other dozens. All of those have books out, I believe, except for maybe SSSS.

EDIT:

Something Positive is probably the best-written webcomic out there today, with the best characters and dialog and plot--it's only flaw is that it might be a bit raw and inaccessible to people younger than teenagers (the first strip being a mean abortion joke probably doesn't help).

Something Positive is a wall-of-text comic which, unfortunately also has very bad writing in its walls of text.

I'm embarrassed to say I read the entire thing in high school in 2004, but in my defense I was starved for content and didn't know any better.

So, there's been 11 years of plot since then. But hey, that's cool, to each their own.

I think Dumbing of Age is targeted at people who are post-college, not kids. A lot of the humor and depth is most manifest to people who have gone through similar crap and can look back on it nostalgically.

SSSS book 1 was funded by an indiegogo campaign[1] in October 2014, which pulled 500% of the target. Book should be available fairly soon.

[1] https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/stand-still-stay-silent-b...

> I've tried to get a mouse to wear a hat.

...What game is that?

I'm interested in the games he listed as well. I know the first one (robot prospector) is probably SteamWorld Dig. Not certain about the others.

The four games I mentioned were:

- SteamWorld Dig: old west robot prospector (ForestC was right!)

- Coming Out On Top: a man have sex with a giant goldfish, a gay college student coming out to his parents

- Escape Goat: get a mouse to wear a hat, a goat that's also a political prisoner. It's more about the goat than the mouse, but I was afraid that "Play as a Goat" would make people think of Goat Simulator. Plus, I found the magic hat to be adorable.

- Long Live the Queen: consoled a grieving child, cope with the death of a parent

There's a graphic novel called "Fun Home" that ticks off 2 out of your 4 wish list items.

edit: and I just realised the author invented the Bechdel test, which is appropriate.

> I want to read a comic about a goat that's also a political prisoner.

Have you tried reading Sluggy Freelance? I don't think they had a goat who was a political prisoner, but many things of equivalent weirdness have definitely been in Sluggy, like a lop-eared rabbit who's also a mobster who's also a time-traveling space pirate.

>Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and you'll also see bookcase after bookcase of manga totally appropriate for all ages with young girls pressing their nose into them. Stories about teenage girls getting picked on at school or trying to meet the right guy or saying stupid things in class. Stories about girls who are in bands and office workers and every possible thing.

I, uh, read a lot of manga intended for teenaged Japanese girls. The ironic thing is, a lot of times even the manga intended for girls is mildly sexualized to please members of the peripheral male demographics, yet the original female audience doesn't run away screaming in response. Guys enjoy "girls comics," and vice versa, and growing up around female anime and manga fans, I never really questioned it. Stories about girls trying to choose between a group of handsome suitors, or stories about guys surrounded by improbably attractive women. Cutesy slice-of-life, or ultra-violence. Ones with boobies and panty shots out the wazoo, or ones with homoerotic undertones... we didn't care, we watched it all together.

Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something.

This is such a good post, its shameful the HN political correctness crowd have downvoted it so. I don't think HN is a mature enough forum for this discussion. Its just a reddit-like upvote/downvote gamificiation machine at this point.

I find it amusing that American culture dictates that once you become 18 you are now sexualized and free to partake of whatever media you like, but an hour before your birthday you are an asexual being with no interest in things other than what the political correct types dictate.

A lot of this stuff is aimed for the 14-18 group where puberty kicks in. Yes, there are boobs and bulging crotches! The characters sometimes have sex! I know, its crazy! It almost reflects the hormonal madness of puberty.

The problem is American culture is so damn puritanical that not only have we dismissed this kind of art as victimizing, if not illegal, that we pretend that the status quo of this level of censorship is fine. Puberty will find a way. Kids will date, fuck, get high, etc. Why our art needs to reflect some kind of Judeo-Christian 1950s ideal is beyond me. Heaven forbid kids that age are represented as how they truly are or art they want is aimed at them. Or that, heaven forbid to SJW types, that most people don't have a problem with traditional gender roles. A manga about a girl trying to get a boyfriend shouldn't cause a social catastrophe. Its fine.

I think this kind of thing is a legitimate social panic, the same way people were obsessed with Satanism in the 1980s. We're going to look back at these ultra-politically correct attitudes today and wonder why we were so worried about displaying traditional roles, sexuality, and violence in fiction.

I like your post, but I'll just say that nobody I know personally would care about displaying traditional roles, sexuality, and violence. When people get pissed I think what they're mostly pissed about is the ridiculous caricaturization that occurs. For instance, a movie with tons of ass-kicking makes you feel excited. Realistic portrayals of violence usually makes you feel sick and horrible. Similarly with sex and gender roles. Much could be said on the topic, but my feeling is that too much of the caricature-fiction produces similar effects as eating too much candy. It's fine in small quantities, but not something to organize your diet around.

In fact, I'd be interested to see who's getting upset about realistic portrayals of anything. Even with the caveats about what would count as a 'realistic portrayal' I think you'd be left with a tiny minority of weirdos and chronic pains-in-the-asses.

I think you and ANTSANTS have both missed the point of the article. It's not about puritanism, though there is plenty of that to be found in American culture. It's about objectification.

Objectification literally means treating a person like a thing. An example of objectification would be a "damsel-in-distress" character with no personality of her own, that exists only as a "reward" for the hero after his struggles. The characters in these comics are not objectified, they are sexualized. They are designed to be sexually attractive, often sporting revealing outfits and exaggerated proportions, but they are still characters with their own personalities, motives, agency, strengths, weaknesses, struggles, and stories. The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem.

If you have problems with your elementary school aged kids seeing sexualized images of women, maybe you shouldn't be buying them comic books about Batman beating criminals into pulps either.

> The conflation of the two is absolutely a neo-puritan problem.

No, I think you're quite mistaken. Japanese culture is even more male-chauvinist than American culture. Gender roles, while loosening a little in recent years, are still extremely rigid. How long do you think it will be before Japan has a female Prime Minister? 50 years? 100?

The presentation of girls and women in fiction is part of the culture, both reflecting it and playing some role -- probably not small -- in perpetuating it. The relentless, unceasing portrayal of sexualized women characters sends the message that the value of women is in their sexuality -- not their intelligence, their emotional perceptiveness, their leadership qualities, or any of hundreds of other positive attributes I could name and that women, like men, possess in varying degrees. That drumbeat -- inescapably present in American culture as well as Japanese -- is heard clearly by both girls and boys, and shapes their attitudes about gender roles.

I'm not trying to play cultural superiority here. Most cultures on this planet have a problem in this area, and the US is no shining exemplar. But holding Japan up as having particularly healthy gender psychology is rather naïve.

And there is such a thing as sexual objectification. If they're such strong characters, then wouldn't they still be as interesting and appealing if physically portrayed as small-chested and straight-waisted and wearing loose t-shirts and jeans?

The truth is that their character depictions are made rich IF doing so serves the story. But their physical portrayal serves no purpose except titillation. (And don't get me wrong, titillation has it's time and place and we could argue forever about whether its overwhelming prevalence in superhero comics is that place.) To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

> Meanwhile, in our more "enlightened" mainstream American culture, people write angry blog posts filled with stupid impact font image macros about how they literally judged an entire medium by its cover, because the female body is offensive or something.

It is absolutely offensive when it is posed in an unreal and unnatural way with impossible proportions and impossible looks.

I get that they are comics, but a story about super girl where she has a perfect 36-24-36 with Tripple F boobs that are molded and sculpted and pointed so far north you could almost navigate by them...it...it is a bit ridiculous.

Fun to look at, yes, but they don't offer much other than a fantasy.

Batman is improbably built. See how his muscles bulge preposterously from his armor? [1] In real life, most body builders focused on "aesthetics" would have to starve themselves to bring their body fat levels low enough to create that kind of appearance. They would not have the energy afterwards to serve Gotham. A fighter [2] or soldier [3] like Batman would prefer to build up "functional" muscle that will be useful in combat, and maintain much greater body fat levels to provide energy reserves in tough situations. Is Batman "offensive," or is exaggeration a basic element of art?

[1] http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Batsuit-Reveal-...

[2] http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1223/mma_2011best_29.jpg

[3] https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/f4/81/3cf4816e3...

I hate to respond with an image macro, but in summary: https://i.imgur.com/MMdocdc.jpg

Two things:

1. killertypo is talking about the way /women/ are portrayed in comic books — not men. He may think the way men are portrayed is wrong as well, so bringing up Batman makes no sense.

2. The way men and women are portrayed is vastly different. Male superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to be, women superheroes are written (and drawn) as people you want to have sex with. This wouldn't be such a big deal if this wasn't the norm.

Check out the Hawkeye Initiative [1], Hawkeye is drawn the way female characters are drawn. Notice that you never see comic book heroes drawn that way unless they're women.

[1] http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

Again, I hate to respond in image macros, but the idea that women don't find men like Batman or Spider Man attractive is bullshit.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/258/9/6/tumblr_mtg09c...

(what do you know, the comic that image mocks was written by a guy...)

I'm sorry, but things like the "Hawkeye initiative" are just plain stupid for completely overlooking the differences between male and female sexuality. Look at the romance novel covers above and try to tell me they wouldn't look absolutely ridiculous with the genders swapped. It reminds me of sites like "Escher Girls", a collection of "boobs and butt" poses in art that the bloggers think are "anatomically impossible" and "disturbing", despite being absolutely trivial for men and women to perform alike.

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/

http://pirate-cashoo.tumblr.com/post/26538269244

https://twitter.com/kinucakes/status/552353978378633218

And judging by the number of female comic book character cosplayers, I think it's safe to say that quite a few women "want to be" these characters, sexualized or not, as well. Women have created strong, sexualized, camp characters like Bayonetta explicitly as female power fantasies, but that never stops a certain band of puritanical American feminists from branding them as "offensive" symbols of the patriarchy.

http://platinumgames.com/2009/04/17/designing-bayonetta/

http://xbox360.gamespy.com/xbox-360/bayonetta/1013849p1.html

http://platinumgames.com/2014/06/27/character-design-pt-1-ba...

Sexuality isn't the problem. Whatever you find sexy is whatever you find sexy and there's nothing wrong with that.

The problem is when media gets sexualized to the point where children grow up thinking only one way of looking at sexuality is the right way. It creates body image-related traumas that get reinforced in places like schools where kids are often taunted for not having the 'right' type. This should be fought whenever possible.

Let's try this again.

Your initial argument was essentially "but men are sexualized too!" And that was irrelevant, because we're talking about ladies.

That comic you posted actually sums it up pretty well, super heroes are drawn as male power fantasies. Also notice I never said anything about women finding Batman unattractive, the problem is that women are drawn almost exclusively to please just men. (Look up male gaze)

If I started reading romance novels, then I too might give a damn if my gender is normally portrayed in certain ways. But I read comic books and found myself enjoying the ones where women get to be people to.

>Check out the Hawkeye Initiative [1], Hawkeye is drawn the way female characters are drawn. Notice that you never see comic book heroes drawn that way unless they're women.

OR unless you're reading Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.

http://theglorioblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/jojos-bizar... -- pictured: some kinda Aztec vampire thingy eating some poor soul

Damn, I really should have included JoJo as an example of straight male manga fans being totally cool with ludicrously flamboyant male characters.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121201210751/jjba/image...

http://animebot.everyboty.net/pix/2994.png

Bishounen is quite popular in Japan, many studios often use this art style, as well as female and male mangaka.

Also "Aztec vampire thingies"? Kars and his lot are the progenitors of mankind.

No, the Pillar Men are a prehistoric cousin-species that couldn't withstand UV light and ate both humans and ordinary vampires. The Aztecs worshiped them as gods, and Cars' attempt to mutate himself into an even-more-super superbeing was what created the Stone Mask.

(Yes, I do remember far too much, far too easily about fine details of anime stories.)

Yes, of course the portrayal of men is oversexualized and problematic. Next question.

"Problematic?" Why is that? Straight women and gay men enjoying beefcake aren't hurting anyone.

the portrayal of men is just as dumb and unrealistic. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy comics quite a bit (Infinity Guantlet anyone? Planet Hulk? World War Hulk???)

I think hyper sexualization of any gender is stupid and serves more as softcore porn than anything.

It is just slightly more offensive to women who spent a long time in our history being told "Well maybe you shouldn't have worn that dress and he wouldn't have hit on you the way he did."

BUT HEY before this gets out of hand, it is equally as degrading as putting down a man for "Well if your wife hits you and you just take it, your a little b()."

There has to be some give and take on this issue, it is not so clearly black and white.

I'm a big enough adult to recognize it's just stupid to think I can change comics and how they are drawn. Maybe if there were a bit more selection for my daughter so she could ease her way into it though? That would be pretty cool.

We're talking about creating a business out of an existing business.

Not getting rid of what we have, at some point you have to accept the reality of the world we live in. I don't want to strike down comic books, but it would be cool if they had a bigger selection for my kids (who would love to enjoy what daddy is reading, but they can wait until they're more mentally/emotionally/physically developed before being exposed).

http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/01/16/9-incredible-examples...

here is a great example of how to make interesting and compelling art without drawing your females as hyper sexualized pieces of meat.

Sans the DBZ one, which is -okayish- but still debatable.

The men are sexualized too. Just not in the hyper masculine sense.

I would like to chime in and say that if there is story, any story (or even no story) at all - there is manga about it. And interesting thing is, according to https://www.mangaupdates.com/genres.html - there is more series targeted at girls than boys: shoujo - ~17K, shounen - almost 9K. Though it's almost reversed for 18-30 age group: josei - ~7K, seinen - ~12K. In sum female oriented works trump male oriented (24 vs 21).

If only Japanese publishers (or it's laws?) were not so narrow minded and hired fans that translate those mangas to fill something like iTunes/Steam library, any human being of any age and sex would have something to read their whole life.

Well that, and his comic book store sucks.

The store I go to has an entire rack/shelf/section for kids. On that rack is MLP, Lego, Minecraft, and a lot of other stuff. Options exist, that store didn't have them available and was probably just hyperfocused on what has traditionally sold, which is a shame because they lose the chance to pick up a new audience. If more stores carried it, the hope is more girls would buy them, and more of those comics would exist, the same way there are 8 parallel running Batman series all with women drawn to to appeal to the instinctual desires of young men.

Side note: The author also seems to have a perception issues that is very telling in his expectations about comics, and fails to realize there are also a lot more in those comics that are reasons you wouldn't want your seven year old reading them beyond the way women are depicted (which is a point I agree with, I think its ridiculous too, and I don't buy those comics). There are a lot of themes in comics that are made for more mature audiences, the writer just sounds kind of ignorant of the media. He thinks "comics are for kids" for example. No, Archie comics are for kids. Comics haven't "been for kids" since the Comic Authority was still prevalent, he's at least a decade or two out of touch. It's almost entirely geared towards teens and young adults, you know, the ones with disposable income who drop $5 per comic. The lack of options sucks, but like most modern retail industries, the industry is optimized to stock/create and churn out what sells the most. Kids under 10 don't buy nearly as many comics as the 17-50 male who will walk out with 5-30 comics sometimes after pay day.

It's kind of like the parent that complains about the prevalence M rated games because video games are for kids. That medium changed a lot since they were playing Nintendo, or video games first came out and mainly only appealed to kids. Those kids grew up, and they still play video games/read comics, but they spend a lot more on them, but want more sex/violence/darker themes, so the market adapted because they want money. The problem is your comic book shop doesn't even stock the equivalent of a Nintendo games section for the younger audience. He's worried about his daughter, but he probably let his kid walk out with comics that are on the level of GTA, just because it was "Batman".

What you say is like a nice idea, but you have to remember that this is a business. These kinds of comics line the shelves, because they're the ones that sell. Of course, it could very well be that if we had more comics that were more moderate they would sell also, but nobody's willing to take the risk. On top of that, you also require an author that is interested in that - you can't just suck this stuff out of a pen to make money (although often this does happen, they tend to end up being less interesting though).

If the comic is printed out then somebody has to buy it. If the comics aren't bought enough then it just won't work. It doesn't matter whether our ideal society would have us have more moderate comics or not, because it seems that in reality that's not the case. Of course, you can always prove me wrong (and the comic industry) by creating your own comic that does adhere to the criteria you enjoy. You would probably be rather successful if people truly wanted it, because it seems like there is no competition for them. But it seems unlikely.

This is definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many other nations have a wider audience for comics, but in the US we've followed your advice so long that all the audiences that aren't adolescent males have been pushed away. Which leads to where we are: comic book companies chasing after a tiny fraction of their potential audience, because they can't make comics for anyone else, because not enough others are hbothering to look for comics anymore. They'd have to rebuild other audiences from scratch, having burned through them all.

Your talking about the tail wagging the dog. Comics are how they are because the market imploded and they have to appeal to the niche of of niche that is their customer base.

When I was a kid in NYC, I remember going to the newsstand with my dad and they had a few racks of the mass market comics. I'd get spider man and superman, my younger sister would get Donald Duck and similar things. Today there's no newsstand and paper media is imploding, so it's a completely different market.

I don't get manga at all, but it's a different phenomenon that doesn't have mass appeal, and girls aren't in the niche.

> Comics are how they are because the market imploded and they have to appeal to the niche of of niche that is their customer base.

It's been a long time since that implosion, that isn't an excuse any longer for why comics continue to alienate new readers and reinforce stereotypes.

> Donald Duck and similar things.

Yeah exactly, it's very hard to find comics like this anymore. I had a friend who used to love Archie comics for example. Good luck finding those anywhere these days.

They're sold in grocery stores in the checkout line. Pretty much relegated to "impulse purchase to satisfy your misbehaving child".

Archie remains popular (inexplicably, to me) and Archie anthologies are available in most supermarkets I've been in (in the US) and at least some of the several comic books are found in almost every comic shop. For a casual fan, I think Archie might be the easiest comic to get a hold of. Just FYI.

>I don't get manga at all, but it's a different phenomenon ... and girls aren't in the niche.

That's hilariously false, both in Japan and abroad.

Except they didn't follow my advice because I or someone else thought it would be cool, it bedmates of the market. People just weren't buying enough comics do they had to target a niche more and more. You say there is some kind of hidden audience that would buy comics if they just stopped portraying female characters the same way they portrayed spiderman? In sure there are some people that feel that way, but I don't there would be enough of those to support the industry, because, again, the internet and other mediums are just wrecking their business.

Also, what other countries really have a healthier comic industry than the US of you exclude manga and manhwa? Not to mention that a huge portion of manga actually is the same as US comics. There are just a bunch of others as well. Not to mention that in Japan you have to tie in the merchandise, light novel, and anime industries to manga as well. There are no popular equivalents for some of those in the US.

> You say there is some kind of hidden audience that would buy comics if they just stopped portraying female characters the same way they portrayed spiderman? In sure there are some people that feel that way, but I don't there would be enough of those to support the industry, because, again, the internet and other mediums are just wrecking their business.

You don't need to listen to me—read the responses in this very thread from HN readers in other countries, which have a much more broad comic book readership. It's filled with them! Just from a cursory glance, we have responders from France, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, as well as yes, Japan—and the enormous webcomic industry. The idea that nobody would ever buy comics except for adolescent males is both foolish and false. The evidence against it is tremendous.

But HN is a tiny minority. It is barely a drop in the ocean. Printed media is losing a lot of market (except books globally and comics in certain asian countries). Look at how manga works - most manga don't get that many sales. They rely entirely on their niche. There are just a lot of authors of them and a lot of buyers. However, in the western world comics seem to be dying like newspapers. The Internet just stomps them, so comics are trying to hold on to the niche they do have as hard as they can. You have to realize that this is afterall a business - the fact that there are very few comics that do portray what you're talking about disagrees with your "tremendous evidence".

Also note that I do not care for these types of comics you describe or even the "sexy" ones. I do not like western art in comics at all. I just think that people who say "oh, but I would read comics if only they had X" talk a lot about it, but not enough of them follow through for extended periods of time when offered the chance.

> But HN is a tiny minority. It is barely a drop in the ocean.

It is, although the comments aren't HN readers talking about themselves—the comments are HN readers talking about what comic book readership in their country looks like. To pick a random example, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8898345. Pay attention to what the author is saying: not "I read X", but "the best selling comic in Norway for decades was Donald Duck", "The best selling French-language comic is usually Spirou".

> You have to realize that this is afterall a business - the fact that there are very few comics that do portray what you're talking about disagrees with your "tremendous evidence".

The fact that there are very few comics in the US. There are very many such comic books outside of the US, and they sell well. My point is, the way the US comic book market looks is not inevitable; instead it's a result of many years of poor decisions by the US comic book publishers to appeal to a single niche.

Or to turn your phrase back on you: it's a business for comic producers all over the world. However, elsewhere they have found success selling to audiences that US comic book producers have long neglected. I know given how popular US cultural products are, it's easy to assume that things outside the US look just like things inside the US, but that's not always the case. HN has an international readership; check out what they say to see what things are like in other countries.

I agree.

Take for example the new Ms. Marvel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms._Marvel_%28Kamala_Khan%29

She's a Pakistani superhero that dresses modestly AND her comics sell. Why? Because they're well-written.

But I guess it's easier to draw more boobs than to invest in quality writing.

> But I guess it's easier to draw more boobs than to invest in quality writing.

Aargh, you're reminding me that I really need to get back into reading that series. When I could buy comics from inside the Comixology app, it was really easy to keep up, and I haven't read any new comics since they pulled that out.

You can still buy from within the Marvel and DC apps. I've never tried it, but it looks like comixology has a tool to sync your comics between accounts.

It is not the males pushing people away from comics. It's exactly the opposite. This is a group engaged in an activity which has long been looked down upon. Reading comics was seen as merely childish. Men embraced it, get called basement dwellers and just go on enjoying the things they enjoy. Then someone sees they are having a good time in spite of decades of being called childish and now suddenly they are sexist for excluding others. These were commonly the guys getting excluded and the comic book store has been their refuge.

That's an interesting point that shouldn't be lost in the discussion. Men who read comics have long been ridiculed by the mainstream. Even the Big Bang Theory, which inspired the blog authors' trip to the comic store, plays to that stereotype of it being an activity for the socially inept. And now, 20 years later, the industry doesn't serve any other market and is being criticized for it. Interesting.

1985: "Ha, look at those comic book guys. What losers! No girls would ever be interested in them."

2015: "Ha, look at those comic book nerds. What misogynists! No girls would ever be interested in them."

It is possible to be both excluded and exclusionary at the same time.

I've been in comic stores that are going hard for the 16-year-old male demographic, and I've been in comic stores that are very friendly. (The latter even has adult stuff, but it's up high or in the back.)

A very good rule is to look in the window from the outside. If you can look in the window, that's a good sign.

Half baked idea for broadening the U.S. comics market.

There is some familiarity with manga in the U.S. I've seen tankobon format translations in Barnes and Noble and public libraries. But there's not the same association with super heroes for books in that format.

So create new works of English language sequential art, but publish them in tankobon format. You could market them to whatever market segment you like, without the superheroes-for-adolescent-males stereotype. You could connect with the existing manga fans first (many of whom already want to prove "Comic books aren't just for teenage boys!"), then broaden out from there.

Has anyone already tried this?

They've been trying that for 20 years.

How can the market fix this?

If there is not enough demand, then publishers aren't going to create these titles.

As the parent mentioned, if you go to Japan, you'll see a thriving market for manga that appeals to girls of varying age groups. So, this would lead one to believe that the demand exists now, it's just completely untapped here. (Ignoring possible cultural differences.) Do you know how you create a large comic book market for older girls / women? Get them hooked when they're young on age-appropriate material, treat them well, and you'll create that market.

Consider 'normal' books. Kids (including girls) have a wide variety of age-appropriate books in a large amount of genres to choose from. I don't understand how there could be a demand for these books, and not those same books with added pictures in them.

> (Ignoring possible cultural differences.)

Well, that's a big part of it.

>Well, that's a big part of it.

Fair enough. I didn't want to get into it because I wanted to keep my point succinct but I believe the main point still applies. You want to change the fact that in the US, comics are only for kids/nerds? Get kids involved early, don't alienate them, and what was once only for geeks and nerds will be for everyone.

The titles already exist. The excellent clerk at my local comic store made me a long list of american and international series for my daughter to check out and I've been very impressed. Most of them have to be ordered though, and none are prominently displayed.

So it isn't so much that the titles aren't being created, but I think you're right that the demand will affect what is visible on store shelves.

Any specific ones from that list that you recommend?

Mouse Guard was excellent. Sometimes a little dark, but honestly, there are a lot of childhood classics that are more than a little dark.

You're giving the producers and distributors far too much credit.

That's the problem with these dialogues. Often left-leaning types see them as justification for censorship and shaming when the real issue is market penetration and audience.

I can walk my son through the girly section of 'toys r us' and see nothing but men represented as effeminate "prince" types who's only main motivation in life is finding a princess. The tumbler social justice warriors don't care about that, being mostly female, it doesn't affect them and they probably don't even notice. That doesn't mean we need more manly men in that section, it just means that certain audiences want certain things. Gender is an audience. Its weird that we pretend gender doesn't exist and how it affects us and our fiction consuming habits.

>We need more articles like this helping people realize what a "normal" comic shop could look like.

Its probably a little too late for that. The shops are folding due to digital distribution and they've somehow become even more manboy friendly as the hardcore and die-hards dictate demand. This is like saying that there aren't enough gay-friendly adult bookstores in your town. Um, sure, but the gays are just using the web like normal people. Or that the vinyl record store only has hipster stuff and not the new Kanye. Normal people are using itunes and google play.

If anything, the retail experience for things that can be gotten online easier is going to be skewed to a weird demographic. The great thing is that online and digital distribution lowers the barrier to entry and even with these low barriers, feminist comics are low on the demand side. Turns out a lot of girls just don't give a shit what activists tell them to do, which I think is wonderful. Girls can buy the girliest visual novel on steam then load up the most macho FPS game afterwards. Let them choose. Hand wringing and guilt trips are totally optional.

That's the problem with these dialogues. Often right-leaning types see them as ways to avoid having to take any responsibility or action for anything by claiming the real issues are things that are the neutral mechanics of an impersonal market.

There, fixed.

Except we've had a history of censorship and its been historically horrible. This is just a new Comics Code Authority Code. So yeah, we tried the liberal censorship (protect the $minority, $gender, $children) approach and its a massive failure because TOP DOWN CONTROL OF CULTURE IS HARMFUL.

Instead lower barriers, give people choice, don't guilt them, open markets, etc. Let speech and art flourish. Political correctness is the opposite of this.

Wow, I'm not sure who you're responding to. I was remarking on the diversionary tactic of using impersonal markets to avoid taking responsibility. Perhaps I hit a nerve.

I've read every comment on this page until this one so far, and you are the only one making this political. Who are you arguing with?

Your over-reliance on political straw men ("left-leaning types," "social justice warriors," "liberal censorship") might turn people off to your actual ideas.

It did me. The term "social justice warrior", like "nation-state", serves primarily as a flag-term that tells me I can stop listening.

Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard the Comics Code Authority called "liberal".

I think parent and grandparent posts both have somewhat valid if overstated points, but have improperly used "left-wing" and "right-wing" in place of "pro-censorship" and "anti-censorship".

Pro-censorship arguments can come from the right (and often do), and anti-censorship arguments in favor or personal choice driving availability can come from the left (and often do.)

Usually, there's slightly different subject matter that left- and right-wing pro-censorship folks target, though sexualized images of women tend to be targeted by both, though with different rationales.

I think that making it about 'censorship' immediately betrays a kind of knee-jerk status quo defending.

There are some folks who would want to see censorship of this kind of material, I'm sure. But I've not met them. And it certainly isn't what the vast, vast majority of feminists and social justice campaigners are interested in.

I don't want censorship for anything. I think people should be perfectly entitled to produce comics with toxic representations of blacks, Jews, Christians, LGBT+ folks, whoever. But I want to agitate and educate for a culture in which such representations are rightly considered unpleasant and unwelcome to most people. I want to change the culture so that those kind of facile objectifications are seen for what they are, and where most people reject them accordingly.

The idea that this is about censorship, is a strawman, as far as I can see. Remember Voltaire.

Unfortunately, it is common for some people to confuse organisation against something with censorship of it.

> The tumbler social justice warriors don't care about that

Yes they do! People are constantly talking about the stupid gendering of toys that don't need to be gendered.

Right. In fact the only people I see talking about this are feminists (SJWs if you like). The only time it comes up in MRA arguments is as this kind of attempt to find a defeater.

Generally, they talk about how its affects girls. My point is that flip-side (effeminate princes) is not a major social issue to them, the same way comic shops marketed and targeted to boys aren't a major issue to boys.

Now the "tough girl" trope is in full effect in fiction. If you portray a feminine girl in YA story you're going to deal with massive protests. We're going to look back at this period and wonder why we thought the Katnis Everdeening of all thing was a good idea and why we no longer have realistic girl characters. Unless they know kung-fu and are tough as nails they don't get published. This doesn't reflect real world girls at all.

"""Generally, they talk about how its affects girls. My point is that flip-side (effeminate princes) is not a major social issue to them, the same way comic shops marketed and targeted to boys aren't a major issue to boys."""

Be the change you want to see in the world.

I seem to have missed the suggestion of censorship. Or did you bring that up for some reason?

> What's not super is that it's really the only kind.

well, there are some exceptions, like Ms. Marvel (http://marvel.com/characters/1017577/ms_marvel_kamala_khan/f...) or latest run of She-Hulk (http://marvel.com/comics/issue/49122/she-hulk_2014_8)

> It's ok to have super sexed-up comics in the store, but it's really sad that's all they have.

I've never been to a comics store where that's all they have. Heck, even the comics selection in non-comics stores that carry some comics usually isn't limited to just that.

Its probably the majority of what they have, because the people that buy it are the ones who will by more comics if more of what they want to buy is available, so its the most profitable segment of the market to serve with comics.

> Japanese manga is fully of sexy, weird, objectifying stuff that most people really wouldn't want their kids to see, but go to a bookstore in Japan and you'll also see bookcase after bookcase of manga totally appropriate for all ages with young girls pressing their nose into them. Stories about teenage girls getting picked on at school or trying to meet the right guy or saying stupid things in class. Stories about girls who are in bands and office workers and every possible thing.

I think the big difference here is that the US cultures differs in that it has a very big "picture books are for children who are still learning to read or male adolescents" thing which skews the market for comic books, Japanese culture is different.

> I think the comic industry, video games, tech, and geek culture in general are all going through growing pains as they find adoption in a larger market.

In some cases, I think that's true. In some cases, though, I don't think its so much that the industries are really finding adoption in a larger market, its that people with ideological axes to grind who aren't part of the market are coming to those industries and beating on them for not even trying to find a broader market but instead doing what they've done for a long time to focus on a market that is well-proven.

"""I've never been to a comics store where that's all they have"""

I've been to plenty of comics stores that only have Marvel and DC, which are the super sexed-up comics being complained about. (Sometimes they'll have an "indie" section in the back with a few Dark Horse and Image trades).

Yes, that what I thought too - manga is the answer, at least for some time. They have lots of different stuff for all ages, except of course there is also a huge amount of similar mainstream "adult" stuff.

Are you saying you want quotas for comic shops?

Why shouldn't they be allowed to just sell the things their customers actually buy?

If somebody has a vision for a better comic shop, why not create one, instead of calling for rules and regulations?

I suppose you could even apply to YC with the idea of launching a better comic book chain.

Edit: since HN prevents me from commenting atm - sure, write more articles about it. But writing articles about there being a market for x doesn't make it true. Buying better comics would make it true. What if some poor soul reads the articles, pours their savings into a fancy comic shop and then goes bankrupt because nobody is buying? Also, I suspect a lot of comic creators scratch their own itch - they make comics they want, not comics that other people want.

1) no

2) they can, and I'm also free to make commentary about it

3) they can, and nowhere did I mention rules or regulations

4) You're right, I could.

The only suggestion I made was that people should write more articles pointing out that there's a lot of potential for more types of comics. The medium is underused. I get the feeling you're replying to what others have said more than what I said.

> there's a lot of potential for more types of comics.

He said the same thing. Open your own shops and publishers. Problem is, no girls want to read your politicized feminist comics. Girls have their own thoughts and that causes a certain demand. That demand probably isn't large and historically girls mature earlier and are into reading novels (think YA and chick-lit) and comics don't provide something they aren't getting elsewhere.

I really hate how a lot of the people in this thread keep saying "oh fix it" and "display more comics." That is fucking regulation there. Right now comic stores sell what sells. This skirting of what you actually want to be done to get your outcome is weasel language. Apparently, starting yoru own store and publishers is too much work, but SJW'ing on HN is just fine. Nothing like low-effort whining eh?

Retail space is limited so the lowest common denominator items will be sold to maximize profit. Its not a conspiracy against your values. Its just business.

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