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Comment by acjohnson55 | Hacker News Reader

I'm all for changing the absurd system where tipping is practically required for one where a reasonable wage is paid and pre-factored into the cost of the service. But if we all just stopped tipping suddenly, it's the most vulnerable people who bear the brunt until the system adjusts. I think that's pretty morally suspect.

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A small sprinkle of restaurants[1] have begun trying an alternative where tips are disallowed but include some type of additional charge on your bill and in return the staff get paid a higher wage. According to another article this has resulted in better service from the staff --and that would seem to be opposite of what you might get from continental servers (who customarily don't get tips), so it bears watching.

[1]http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-restaurants-adopting-no-tip...

PS. The strata of restaurant trying this approach might skew results, so, not sure what results one might get in a broad spectrum of restaurants.

You don't have to wait for the results to come in. Just go to Europe, where this has been standard practice for decades if not longer.

For what it's worth, in my own personal experience and that of others I've talked with, the service in Europe is markedly worse than what you usually get in the US. But anecdotes like mine are too little to go on. I'd be interested to hear if there's been any cross-cultural research on the subject.

Are you kidding me? I've had only a handful of bad service experiences in Europe compared to the numerous great ones.

The Europeans tend not to keep coming back to your table to ask how you're doing, or if something is wrong. If there is something wrong with the meal they'll come because they're watching/paying attention.

Most people want a waiter to come by because its rude to wave a waiter over.

European service sucks.

No, most people probably want to eat their meal in peace and quiet.

They don't need a waiter coming over every five minutes - specifically so that you'll remember that and equate it with "attentiveness" and "great service" when it comes to time to tip.

Next time you are out at a fine dining place, which tend to be very selective about hiring wait staff, see how they do it. That's really what people want.

I'm sure there is a large minority who just want to be left in peace and quiet, but you aren't the average customer.

A good waitress will know when to time her visits so she isn't always there but you don't notice her absence.

For that type of waitress I will not hesitate to tip 22% or higher.

Personally I loathe the intrusive cloying fake-friendliness of US waiters. I've had a few pretty poor[1] experiences despite not eating out that often in the US.

I have eaten out in the UK considerably more often and had fewer poor experiences.

maybe it's just a cultural thing?

How in the world do you know that the friendliness is fake?

Because the alternative - that people actually behave like that in their real life outside work - is not supported by my interactions with people outside the work environment.

Everyone has a level of friendliness. You step inside a restaurant and it gets ramped up dramatically. Some US places feel like the Disney store which has almost oppressive levels of forced-friendliness. (Where -employees- "cast members" are instructed to "spread the magic".)

I think it depends on how you see and interpret the friendliness. In some cultures it's not so much faking it as it is fulfilling a (n expected) role. So it is actually a sincere execution of a role and not fake --on the other hand outside this role their personality can be quite different.

Absolutely. I have a certain level of friendliness to random strangers. But customers of any kind? I sincerely care about their experience of dealing with me and my company. So if I come off as more friendly when dealing with them, I'd say that's genuine.

Because it usually runs out pretty quick and they're a little too friendly too quickly. I.e. Tries to sit down with you and make small talk.

It's not rude at all to catch their eye, or are you using the finger clicking method?

I thought that too, buut then I thought about Japan --and there they get paid near minimum wage (comparable to US minimum wage) but also have no tipping policy (or rather culture) and yet service tends to be great. So I think culture has a significant impact --and I wonder where US staff might fall; towards European apathy or Japanese pride in vocation.

If they take pride in their work that might make me feel better, or it might make them feel better. But that alone is not going to put bread on their table.

Many changes that end up being pretty good hurt the most vulnerable in the short term. The biggest example of this is the Industrial Revolution.

It's tough to say whether you apply moral leanings towards no disruption at all vs. "in the long term" benefits to everyone, including the most vulnerable among us.

I'm not going to offer an answer, because I'm not sure I have one. I don't want anyone to suffer, but I want everyone to be better off in the end.

Cabbies seem like they're in the heart of every controversy these days - from medallions losing huge amounts of value to wage/tip adjustments.

In the end, do we all benefit?

There's a cafe here in Toronto that adjoins a community centre that runs social programs, etc., and they have a tip jar next to the register. There's a sign that says something like "Our staff a paid a fair living wage. Any donations for the community centre are welcomed." or something.

So it is okay to deprive generations of future servers of a guaranteed livable wage, just because the current one will be affected temporarily?

That's not the only alternative. And if your answer personally is not to tip, I think you have to ask yourself whether you're not tipping has made an impact on the policy, is is your action just hurting the poor sap who happened to serve you with no connection to a broader movement to spark change?

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