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Comment by meowface | Hacker News Reader

Waiters in the US make an average of $4.63 and median of $4.00 per hour [1] from their employer in wages. They make the rest of their income in tips. If you don't tip, you're potentially taking a not insignificant chunk out of their pay for the day.

In the US, it takes fairly extreme circumstances to not tip (by most people's standards at least; some people just never tip, but they're a tiny group), like if the service was extremely bad or the waiter was insulting or hostile.

Employers are legally required to chip in if the employee doesn't make minimum wage for a pay period, so it's not completely insane, but it's still a rather weird system.

[1] http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Waiter%2FWaitress/Ho...

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Yeah I mean I understand all of that, I just think it's crazy. As a consumer. Vox said it well with "consumers should not be responsible for paying the incomes of a restaurant owner's employees".

I find it hilarious how much intelligent and smart people rationalise the US tipping culture. It's always justified as you need to tip because the staff are paid low because they make it up in tips. It's circular reasoning.

Consumers pay 100% of the incomes of a restaurant's employees.

Well not directly.

Why, as a consumer, am I making a decision on how much the staff will earn that day. That's the employer's responsibility. Why doesn't the restaurant owner set the price of what they sell accordingly to cover all costs (incl. wages)?

In Australia, the price I see on the menu is the price I'm charged and the price I pay. That includes wages!

Why do you go to a restaurant rather than buying food from a grocery store and eating at home? The service aspect is what you pay for when going out to eat vs just buying food.

Tipping is about connecting the buyers and sellers of services directly. How does sending the money through a manager/owner result in better or more cost effective services?

What I said elsewhere in the thread:

IMHO, one of the employers responsibility is to pay their staff. I don't think that's really arbitrary, it's commonly accepted across the world.

If you're in the service industry, it's your job to be nice. That's what their employer (hopefully) pays them for.

If I have a good or bad experience, I exercise my discretion by choosing whether to go there again. If the employer notices a trend downwards in customers, it's their responsibility to assess what that is - hopefully their in touch enough with their business to identify if it's because of their employees service and 'apply pressure' if need be.

I guess ultimately it comes down to culture. I (and the large majority of the non-US world) isn't accustom to paying 10%+ extra for bad or rude service and it would be very hard for us to understand why that happens.

Honestly, I go to a restaurant so I don't have to cook. If I could get top steakhouse quality (or indian, or italian, etc.) food from a counter where there's no one between me and the cook, I would, but I can't, so I don't, and I'm forced to tip someone I don't even want involved with my food in the first place.

There are places where you order from a counter and tipping is not expected. You aren't going to find 'steakhouse quality' because people who want $50 steak from a counter is small.

>> "The service aspect is what you pay for"

Nope. I pay so someone else cooks my food and I have a nice selection. In fact anytime I've eaten at a restaurant in the US I hated the service. They just won't leave you alone because they want to be your friend so you will tip them. I don't need you to check how I'm doing every 10 minutes.

Tipping is the original crowd funding.

>> some people just never tip, but they're a tiny group

In my experience, they're not tiny. I'm a young male who owned and worked in my own bar in a poor area of the bible belt, so there's those caveats--but I averaged about 8% in tips over 2.5 years.

My niece, on the other hand, averages over 20%.

My service was in all likelihood better than hers--at the time, we had fewer customers and therefore I was literally able to do more. Further, I'm well-liked by my customer base, and by my own measure I was an excellent bartender.

Anyway, I had a very large amount of customers who did not tip. I'd say > 30%.

>>My niece, on the other hand, averages over 20%.

Were you able to figure out why?

I just posted more about it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8844833

But no, just speculation.

I speculate that people are less likely to tip barstaff than waitstaff, but I don't have any sources to back that up.

In the anecdata of my family & friends who have done both, they have come to expect a higher percentage on bar tabs (~20%) than on restaurant tabs (~15%).

There's a ton of factors to consider, of course. Some people get angry when drunk, some get loose with their money, some try to impress. Some people are surprised by large bar tabs and feel cheated. And all the normal factors, like that certain groups are notoriously tight with their money.

> "I averaged about 8% in tips over 2.5 years. My niece, on the other hand, averages over 20%."

Can you clarify the circumstances here, namely:

- does she work in your bar? If not, how similar is the place she works (same city? Same type of neighborhood? Same type of services?)

- did you work the same hours / days / crowd demographic? (There may be a difference in tipping expectations on Wednesday mid-afternoon when people are getting a single drink after work, vs Friday night when they're getting multiple drinks and food and trying to impress their date.)

- were there significant changes in the surrounding area, such as a factory opening or closing, that changed customer demographics?

- are there other wait staff you can compare to that would show a pattern? For example, are women in your establishment generally better tipped than men?

Sorry it was unclear.

Yes, same bar.

Over time our clientele has changed (we intentionally changed it, mostly via pricing and what we carried, like nixxing 'Best Ice'), however that has just led to increased sales, rather than an increased percentage for her.

My nephew also works in the bar now, and he is tipped well, though not as well as my niece. I would venture a guess that the old crowd tipped women better than men, and the new crowd tips based mostly on service.

Either way, I got the short end of that stick.

> Employers are legally required to chip in if the employee doesn't make minimum wage for a pay period,

My own (very uninformed) assumption is that employers would be reluctant to make up the difference and employees would hesitate following this up in fear of getting in their employers 'bad books'

At first I thought your comment may have been flawed but you clearly recognized that the restaurant owner must cover the pay difference.

How is the average/median less than the federally mandated minimum wage law? Could the waiters themselves be under reporting tips?

The average isn't counting tips. Sorry if my post was misleading in that regard.

It's very possible a waiter could be making $4.00 in wage per hour but average out to something like $18/hour when you account for tips, and I think this is pretty common in mid-tier restaurants and up. (My numbers may be way off for that; I've never worked in a service industry.)

Waiters serving establishments in wealthier areas can potentially make a lot of money from tips.

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