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Comment by tectonic | Hacker News Reader

And the companies knew that it was dangerous too

According to Wikipedia:

The U.S. Radium Corporation hired some 70 women to perform various tasks including the handling of radium, while the owners and the scientists familiar with the effects of radium carefully avoided any exposure to it themselves; chemists at the plant used lead screens, masks and tongs.[1] US Radium had even distributed literature to the medical community describing the “injurious effects” of radium.

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And this is why self regulation rarely works in for-profit industries.

Why isn't the threat of legal action a sufficient incentive against this? It might not help to prevent freak accidents but for known health problems like the radium, if the managers are documented to know about it without taking action, then they would spend the rest of their lives at risk of going to prison, or at least the company being fined.

Of all the things I've seen scare people in plants, OSHA wins, hands down. The environmental agencies probably come neatly in second. Fines can be paid, lawsuits settled, but OSHA will come in and lock down your facility and stop production. They're like the nuclear deterrent of plant safety (and while it can be said that stuff still gets by, there is always the omnipresent fear of getting caught, and even that helps raise safety awareness).

They have teeth, such that just baring their teeth can be enough to incite action.

Because them knowing about could also be coupled with them knowing that they can defend against such action. Either advised by their legal team based on existing laws or based on how well "written down" the evidence is.

In this case for example, it was an iconic case. But each of the Radium Girls didn't really get that great of a deal out of it ($10k in 1920's money). And US Radium Corp didn't exactly crumble after the lawsuit. It functioned for many decades after.

Yep, that's only about $120,000 in today's money.

It's hard to pin liability on specific individuals without documentary proof, as verbal conversations are ephemeral and criminal liability usually requires a demonstration of intent which is hard to establish in court. companies can build the cost of fines into the price of their product to some extent, and whenever a company is fined a large amount there's always a contingent of unquestioningly-pro-business people available to denounce it a 'gubmint shakedown,' and make noises about tyranny, liberty, due process and so on - regardless of the degree to which the regulatory action is warranted.

Suing someone is a huge pain in the butt and costs a lot of money. It's also extra difficult when you are trying to sue someone who knows what they are doing is wrong and is actively trying to cover their tracks and obstruct the case. At the same time there is a concerted effort among corporations to limit their liability through legislation, and via PR campaigns against lawyers and lawsuits.

Companies can afford giant legal teams that can stretch things out for decades. Horrendously sick people can't afford the lawyers nor the time.

Because someone in a tank is not afraid of someone with a slingshot (corporate legal department vs smalltime injured/sick/dying people.)

A different, but somewhat similar issue came up with PVC (?); hairspray contained PVC until the health hazards became commonly known while industrial users continued exposing workers to those same hazards. The reasoning, as I understand the story, was that the companies' liability to customers (i.e. hairspray users) was unlimited, while the liability to employees was limited.

If you find these sorts of things amusing, check out Thomas Midgley, Jr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley,_Jr.).

Some companies are willing to that risk and gamble that no one finds out, especially if the legal action in question is cheaper than the fix. :)

Yes. Moreover, this self regulating-type "utopias" are not just fantasies or tricks from history -- this is reality in some countries that are corrupt, where government regulations exist, but are just never enforced. You go to the market to buy baby formula and you get chalk mixed with water. You buy "organic" but it is laced with chemicals.

You're right, there should have been a regulatory agency that US Radium could bribe or lobby so that they could avoid paying any damages to the victims at all. /s

Volenti non fit injuria

Not sure if you're serious, but if you are: "the willing" are often poorly informed or have little choice.

denysonique didn't give enough information about whether the legal doctrine should apply or is a good policy; simply that it often does apply and often shields companies from lawsuits.

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