Comment by carloscm | Hacker News Reader

Comment by carloscm | Hacker News Reader

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This is notable not just because of Neal Stephenson, but because his blog post contains what I think is the most detailed public description of the tech so far:

--- Here’s where you’re probably expecting the sales pitch about how mind-blowingly awesome the demo was. But it’s a little more interesting than that. Yes, I saw something on that optical table I had never seen before--something that only Magic Leap, as far as I know, is capable of doing. And it was pretty cool. But what fascinated me wasn’t what Magic Leap had done but rather what it was about to start doing.

Magic Leap is mustering an arsenal of techniques--some tried and true, others unbelievably advanced--to produce a synthesized light field that falls upon the retina in the same way as light reflected from real objects in your environment. Depth perception, in this system, isn’t just a trick played on the brain by showing it two slightly different images.

Most of the work to be done is in applied physics, with a sizable dollop of biology--for there’s no way to make this happen without an intimate understanding of how the eye sees, and the brain assembles a three-dimensional model of reality. I’m fascinated by the science, but not qualified to work on it. Where I hope I can be of use is in thinking about what to do with this tech once it is available to the general public. "Chief Futurist" runs the risk of being a disembodied brain on a stick. I took the job on the understanding that I would have the opportunity to get a few things done. ---

One of the things that's interesting to me about that quote is the phrase "optical table."

I think that there's a presumption (that I've shared) that Magic Leap is trying to make AR goggles or glasses. But, as has been extensively commented upon in the past, that's just crazy. We're just barely at the point of doing semi-decent VR (Oculus Rift) and just barely at the point of doing semi-decent wearable heads-up displays (Google Glass). The idea that Magic Leap could in any foreseeable timeframe create a device that has all the virtues of the Rift + Glass + A huge dose of additional technology on top of both is just laughable.

But if they're trying for something much heavier-weight, like the ability to create convincing illusions not in the form-factor of "some goggles," but rather, "a specially prepared room and table," then that's maybe a little more realistic -- and of course less obviously revolutionary.

I think you should read this as "what they are doing in the lab."

An "optical table" is to optical technologies as a solderless breadboard is to electronics.

Basically, it's a big, stable platform with lots of threaded holes of a standard size and pitch for attaching lasers, mirrors, etc. Most have some kind of pneumatic isolation or damping to keep vibrations from being transmitted from the floor. Things like interference phenomena are sensitive to displacements of a few nanometers, so you really don't want things like passing trucks to ruin your experiments!

Examples here: http://www.newport.com/Optical-Table-Selection-Guide/140219/...

This got lost between my brain and my previous message, but yes, I agree, that's the most likely explanation.

But I mention the "they're trying to build like the equivalent of the early table-based Microsoft Surface (before that meant a tablet), but pseudo-holographic instead" idea just because it's so unbelievable to me that stand-alone goggles can possibly deliver what they're claiming.

Stand-alone goggles make more sense than a table, because they're closer to the eye and can more directly manipulate what the user sees.

If you read through the depths of Magic Leap's site combined with their patent applications, it becomes clear that they are trying to develop a set of goggles which combines some form of projection onto the retina [0] with some form of selective blocking [1] (to give contrast, and prevent the projected images from appearing as hazy mirages over the light otherwise reaching the retina).

Especially the blocking would be impossible to achieve with anything but goggles.

[0]: https://www.google.com/patents/US20140071539 [1]: https://www.google.com/patents/US20130128230

I think the idea is not that they wouldn't have goggles—these lab prototypes have goggles—but that they might be much more constrained than a free, walk-around head mount. Think: Imagineering-like controlled experiences down to arcades rather than a personal walk-around device like Glass^n or Rift AR. Controlling both the environment and background they augment and the head movement (and not worrying as much about miniaturization) could make the problem easier enough to be manageable.

Still unclear. They do seem to imply they want it to be an unconstrained mobile AR device, but that is indeed ambitious enough to warrant skepticism. Walk-around tracking for home/anywhere is still an unsolved problem for Oculus, and overlay AR is at least several times more demanding.

I think if you're tracking the user's position, then it may be practical to beam different images to each eye for a good 3D experience.

That's actually how (kinda) Stephenson's VR system he describes in Snow Crash works.

This kind of gets away from many of the issues you have with the Oculus Rift where you have such a tiny window of time (20ms or so) to react to how the person is moving his head. You still have to change the image based on the user's position, but not as much on head rotation which is the really hard part. Just each eye's location in space matters.

Multiple users would likely require multiple projectors.

It could also be far more revolutionary. They make it sound like they invented a small-scale holodeck. If that is the case, no matter how it works, or how limited it is, the potential is huge. Realistic holograms would be a major step forwards in connecting computers to humans.

i think the major issue is going to be power. the battery requirements for processing a small-scale holodeck will be huge. making something portable that lasts for a sufficient time is going to require an energy breakthrough

>I think that there's a presumption (that I've shared) that Magic Leap is trying to make AR goggles or glasses.

probably because they's explicitly what they've claimed they're working on in their recent funding announcement. The CEO described their product as a "lightweight wearable".

I think there are very concrete ways to accomplish this, for example an arbitrarily fast spinning mirror with a 3d scanner and a projector with an arbitrarily high refresh rate. If this system were precise enough, you could have strong stereoscopy with a table.

It sounds more to me like a direct projection to retina. Has this ever been attempted ? Would that be working with lasers ?

There have been head-mounted "virtual retinal displays" that focus a laser onto the retina.

I think they're mostly in patent hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_retinal_display

Manufacturers and commercial uses ... Consumer versions are expected to ship fall of 2015

It would be interesting if this was progressing because some major patent roadblocks where about to expire.

Interesting. Thanks !

Stupid question: Who is Neal Stephenson, and why is he famous?

Wikipedia suggests that he's a sci-fi author, is there a particular reason for his fame, could you recommend some of his works?

Snow Crash for old school howling-metal cyberpunk.

The Baroque Cycle for a semi-fictional view of the beginnings of science - the Newton and Hooke era.

Anathem for an interesting take on the philosophy of science disguised as a sci-fi epic.

Have you not read 'The Diamond Age'?

IMO it is one of his best works. Nanotech/Networks/Crypto for the masses to understand. I read, loved and was caught up in the VR fever of the 90's via Snow Crash, and love his other books, but TDA is the one I'll never get rid of.

I loved The Diamond Age as well, although I remember mostly bits and pieces now:

* cult sex scenes

* a forced-participation theater that humiliates you using Occulus Rift-technology

* the Kill Bill-esque ending

* ... and, most of all, the idea of continous education using an immersive Minecraft-like book/world that expands in complexity as your education grows.

Too bad we (the hackers) never completed even a crude version of the Primer (the book in the last bullet point) for the young geeks out there.

TDA is an interesting take on the issues a post-scarcity world might face. Unfortunately my immesion in the book was broken in several places by cringe-worthy "computers will never be able to do X" tropes. For example, the Primer must get a human to read its text aloud because "computers will never be able to reproduce a human voice"; this is in a world where atomically-precise, molecular diamond nanocomputers can be essentially 3D printed for free.

* > computers will never be able to do X*

I like your point; it compliments itself nicely with my previous one. Soon enough, computers may be able to do many things very well -- however, hackers are not catching up to corporations.

What I mean: if I remember correctly, in the DA world TV and big companies have as big as a grip on general populace as they have to day, but hackers are able to create alternatives, like the mentioned Primer for children's education.

In the real world, "hackers" (or those with the technical know-how to be one) love Apple and Google as much as the rest of the populace does, and leave the big things (OS, main APIs, maps, voice assistant, their personal data, ebook stores, videos available to young children) to them with very little opposition.

I think things will get more interesting when Oculus, Meta, Magic Leap and others get a little bit more entrenched (ass-u-me'ing it happens!).. give it another 10 years or so.. ;)

* They built everything with DIAMONDS... because it was cheap.

Someone endowed of clue should get going with a kickstarter for at least a film version of TDA, if not a lot of what was described therein :)

Damn, I'm going to have to read it again now. Still, it's about time for a refresh...

IMHO, it would do better with the Studio Ghibli treatment, than a live action movie.

Read the book in college, recently re-read as an audiobook - still relevant, still tantalizing.

I think I've read all his books. But his work is pretty diverse, so you get to pick and choose based on taste and preference.

There was a time when I thought Snow Crash was the best. There was a time when Cryptonomicon was a lot of fun (still is). Nowadays I incline slightly more towards the 'philosophical opus' type of vibe that Anathem gives off.

Anyway, all his books are pretty good representatives of one sub-genre or another. He's a very good author, and he wrote in a lot of different keys through his career so far.

All are fantastic. I was put off by the beginning of Snow Crash initially, as there are some tongue-in-cheek bits that struck me as too campy. But I might not say that now, having read it a few times.

The Baroque Cycle is a massive piece of work spanning 3 volumes, comprised of 8 nominally independent books. If it seems intimidating, just try the first one and see if you're not hooked. I'd love it if there was twice as much material.

Anathem is by far my favorite. Its hooks take longer to set, but for me they set much deeper. There is a lot going on in this book, and it will truly blow your mind if you let it.

I'm reading Snow Crash at the moment for the first time.

The beginning is actually really tough going as a completely new reader today. It's just so ridiculous. I can see where he was coming from, as I grew up in that era, but it's actually pretty bizarre now given the reality is nation states, religion and banks turned out to be so much more powerful than corporations.

Which is one of the perils of predictions in ageing sci-fi.

I've been on a sci-fi kick recently of all the classics I never read (William Gibson, Ender's Game, The Mars Trilogy, Forever War, Starship Troopers, A Canticle For Leibowitz, Philip K. Dick, Hyperion Cantos, Ringworld) and re-reading some I've not read for a long time (Foundation Series).

I personally found that Snow Crash is by far the most dated book. Even Ringworld and the foundation series were better.

I dunno, I find Snow Crash dates much better than most cyberpunk - William Gibson included - precisely because the ridiculousness was intentional. Neal no more believed we'd actually be living in an anarcho-capitalist dystopia with samurai-wielding hipster-heros delivering pizzas for the Mafia than Aldous Huxley believed we'd actually be letter-graded and programmed into praising his Fordship from birth.

Some of the space opera, on the other hand, was so earnest and certain that we'd be flying around at light-speed by now you feel almost disappointed for the authors.

Vernor Vinge is another great hard sci-fi author. "A Fire Upon the Deep" is a space opera epic if I've ever read one. Currently finishing up "Rainbows End", and wasn't sucked totally in until maybe 1/3 through, but now I'm hooked :)

Rainbow's End is one of my favorite books. I have probably read it 4 or 5 times since 2007. I find the ideas in it have gotten more accurate as time goes on.

> Snow Crash is by far the most dated book

All cyberpunk is like that, for reasons that are pretty obvious.

> Even Ringworld and the foundation series were better.

Of course. Physical reality changes much more slowly.

I mention other cyberpunk that's not dated, I've read 2 or 3 of the Neuromancer series and that hasn't fared anywhere near as badly, the only glaring plot point I noticed in that is that no-one had mobile phones.

And when I refer to Foundation & Ringworld I meant that they are from the 60s and so have some weird cultural ideals as well as some (unintentional) misogyny & racism in the foundation series.

Check out the Old Man's War series by John Scalzi. It's kind of a Starship Troopers meets Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy (A bit less absurd.)

It was bizarre then. I was very skeptical the first few pages. I did not understand that the adolescent cheese was tongue in cheek until the second chapter.

Have you read R.A. Lafferty?

> Anathem is by far my favorite. Its hooks take longer to set, but for me they set much deeper. There is a lot going on in this book, and it will truly blow your mind if you let it.

I've a major in Physics and it took me a couple readings to figure out all (well, most of) the connections therein. My favorite game to play while reading Anathem was figuring out where are the borders between historical fact (translated into the fictional world of Arbre, of course), current hypotheses within present-day science, and just downright fiction. Quick quiz: is "geometrodynamics" Stephenson's invention, or a term used in the real world? You get puzzles like that at every step, some easier, some harder.

A few examples that stand out:

Actual history of science - well, Thelenes, Adrakhones, Saunt Tredegarh, Saunt Muncoster, etc. (again, real people disguised under the mask of Arbran characters)

Current hypotheses - the whole Multiverse thing, the Fraa Paphlagon / Hugh Everett parallel.

Out-and-out fiction - eh... this is harder. The Wick, maybe?

And then there's Fraa Jad, all alone in a category of his own. :) I daresay one of the most striking, memorable characters in all sci-fi - if you get the point of the whole book.

Yes, I enjoy too. [1] is a good helper

[1] http://anathem.wikia.com/wiki/Earth%E2%80%93Arbre_Correlatio...

Don't for get Cryptonomicon!

I would also highly recommend:

The Mongoliad semi-fictional view of mid-thirteenth century Mongol invasion of Europe

Reamde MMO gold farming, social networking, criminal methods of the Russian mafia, Islamic terrorists

ugh. Reamde.

Reamde starts off with a lot of interesting ideas, and then morphs into quite possibly the worst watered-down, airport-paperback, fourth-rate-Tom-Clancy-triller nonsense I have ever read. Avoid it at all costs. Unbelievable plot and character motives. ick.

I really liked Reamde. It's a close second to Anathem as far as Neal Stephenson's books go for me.

If you can suspend disbelief at the sheer ridiculousness of the situation, it's pretty awesome.

Seconded. It's really awful. Read Snow Crash, Cryptonomicon, and Anathem.

The Russians were fun, if a bit cartoonish.

Man I am almost done Reamde and would not recommend that to anyone. I have a massive vocabulary and I was still looking up words every few pages. Every time I suspected it was a synonym for a simpler word, and every time I was right.

Writing aside I've found the plot pretty slow with not much interesting happening for most of the Zula portions (ie. middle half of the book). Maybe Stephenson's level of detail just isn't for me but it really wants for editing.

Tastes differ. I thought it was a fun story and a quick easy read. I'd recommend it to pretty much anyone. My wife, mother, and sister, all of whom are big readers but none of whom are really in the target nerd demographic, all liked it.

Anathem and Diamond Age were harder for me because of the depth of ideas. I had to slow down and think to get through them.

Baroque Cycle was harder because of the sheer number of characters with multiple and/or similar names, which is realistic but annoying. There's a list of characters in the back of the first book, which helps, but it's annoying to have to keep the first book handy when you're reading the others.

Stephenson does have a reputation for starting great books and not knowing how to finish them. But I think I've gotten more than my money's worth out of all of them.

I loved the Baroque Cycle, but I am also a history fan so a lot of the names were already familiar to me.

If you're familiar with his style, and you take Reamde for what it really is - stuff he played with while taking a break from "real work" after the massive Baroque trilogy - then it makes sense and it's quite enjoyable.

The Mongoliad is team-written, and it shows. It's a sprawling, uneven work, with interesting parts, but also tedious one. It is in no small part a vehicle for the authors' interest in the technical aspects of fighting with medieval weaponry.

In the parts of the Mongoliad I managed to make it through, there were characters and plots and swordfights the way you find characters and plots and sex in a porn flick. If that's your thing, you'll really like the book, but I'm just not that into swordfights.

In addition to what everyone else said, Stephenson's really long essay In the Beginning was the Command Line is worth a read, if one has the time:

http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html

Warning: written fifteen years ago, also really long.

As others have mentioned, Stephenson is known for his fiction. However, his nonfiction piece from 1996 for Wired magazine is my personal favorite piece. It recounts his trip around the world investigating undersea fiber-optic cables and speculating on what it all means for the future:

http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass_pr.html

This quote: "Cable layers, like hackers, scorn credentials, etiquette, and nice clothes. Anyone who can do the work is part of the club. Nothing else matters. Suits are a bizarre intrusion from an irrational world. They have undeniable authority, but heaven only knows how they acquired it." Love it!

I would recommend Cryptonomicon.

He's a sci-fi author with a particular talent for believable, well-rationed near-future fiction. I recommend reading Snow Crash without looking at the publication date until after you finish the book.

Outside of sci-fi novels, he is known for his insights into tech/Internet propagation, particularly during the 90s/00s.

I'd recommend his "Mother Earth Mother Board" article (more like a small book, be warned) as the definitive tome on the physical reality of how the Internet is held together across the world: http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass.html

Stephenson's post mentions Snow Crash. Start there.

He's relevant here for many reasons (his tech writing, consulting, other projects, etc.), but particularly it's for his concept of the "Metaverse" which appeared in Snow Crash: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaverse

He's an author, but he has a bit of a history of 'product vision'. This might be interesting background: https://medium.com/message/the-kindle-wink-4f61cd5c84c5

Don't forget to tell Neal how much you love "The Big U" http://www.amazon.com/Big-U-Neal-Stephenson/dp/0380816032

{EDIT: snip}

Google Earth was heavily influenced by ideas in his books.

The Kindle was codenamed "Fiona", after Fiona Hackworth, a character in one of his books who uses a super-duper e-book.

> his blog post contains what I think is the most detailed public description of the tech so far

Gizmodo would beg to differ: http://gizmodo.com/how-magic-leap-is-secretly-creating-a-new...

On "how... the brain assembles a three-dimensional model of reality":

I was recently pulled into the wormhole of present day speculations (science??) on this. And wow, sounds like what they are working on may yield real, new understanding on cognition and consciousness.

One of the entertaining reads: "Space, self, and the theater of consciousness" by Trehub http://people.umass.edu/trehub/YCCOG828%20copy.pdf

Now all we need is Class V Star Cruiser to put it in.

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