- As a man, am I just less clever?
- Where will my job go, if women are apt to take over all our management jobs since they're smarter in relationships and equally good at technical stuff?
- We all agree it's extremely bad when we hear: "Ah no, women aren't clever enough for programming", so what about the opposite?
- Personnaly I have a terrible lack of confidence when it comes to certain tasks. When women experience it, we help them overcome it. Can someone help me also, even though I'm a man?
Stereotyping women on being more social is just unfair, because while we think this way, we fail to see something positive in men.
Edit: You're allowed to downvote, yes, but it would work on excluding me. If you want to do something good to society and something inclusive, you could rather add a comment attaching positive stigma to men, because we rarely hear positive things about men, and that's probably a key cornerstone of the resistence to helping women more.
Is there a reason for this that's more interesting than "Men have, historically and to some extent in the present, been more likely to have the freedom and the resources to accomplish what they set their minds on"? For instance, is there a study that investigates people's dispositions to genius-like behavior and criminal-like behavior, doing everything they can to control for social factors?
There are plenty of truths that aren't very meaningful. I'm totally willing to believe that this one is, I'd just like to see some research on it.
(In particular, if either of these are contingent on structural inequality, then we'd expect both of these to get less true if the arc of history keeps bending the same way, and long-term social designs should not expect these to be reliable.)
I know almost nothing about this subject and this theory could very will be bullshit. Just something I've read.
That's because when it comes to society, data can sometimes be dangerous. Data tells us how the world looks, but whereas in nature the laws are fixed (or so we hope), society is very fluid. This can confuse people. Any data about society is a snapshot of current conditions: it doesn't mean that things have never been different or won't be different, and it most certainly does not tell us that this is how things should be (the latter is the biggest difference between the natural and the social sciences -- in nature there's only "is" while in society there's "is" and "ought" and the two are rarely the same; also, we have at least some power over the structure of our society, while changing nature can be tricky).
This is why data means very different things in physics and sociology, and why -- at least by default, or until proven otherwise -- any sociological data should be understood as: this is how things currently are; should we try to change them?
At any point of time we're trying to force society to be something other than it is.
In 1700 we're assimilating natives. In 1800 we're converting slaves to Christianity. In 1900 we're banishing jews from countries. In 2000 we're enacting laws that favour some over others.
None of these attempts at societal change were ever complete.
Today we're sure changes society tried to make in 1700, 1800, 1900 were misguided and harmful.
I wouldn't be surprised if society in a hundred years will have a different again perspective to what we're doing now.
I would, because the things are completely opposite. One is about subjugating the weak, and the other is about freeing them. I'm surprised you can compare the two! We're not "enacting laws that favor some over others", but laws intended to help communities or groups that have, for centuries or millennia been put down. If you think for one second that women or minorities are somehow "favored" in modern Western society, then you're either blind or delusional. They are still very much disfavored, and some laws are trying to ever-so-lightly tilt the scales a little bit in their favor, and a lot less than they deserve.
In 1700's, europeans thought they were raising the natives to their level. In 1900's, some germans thought they saw jews as having excess privileges and need to be brought down. In 2000's, feminists think men have an excess of privileges in society, and that they need to tilt the scales in women's favor.
> I would, because the things are completely opposite.
They're all instances of trying to pull society from what it is to what it thinks it ought to be.
Also, of all the ways women may be disadvantaged, I don't think freedom is one of them, at least in developed countries. Also, women were never put in chains. If they thought they were being put down, there were many opportunities for them to have thrown down the metaphorical chains and shackles men have placed on them, and overcome their male masters, in the past thousands of years, just like the various native aboriginals who fought against European invaders, as Jews having the tenacity to form dominant minorities in hostile nations and organising to form their own country, and as slaves had done throughout history in various rebellions since the Ancient Roman Empire as well as participating in the fight against American South in the Civil War. Instead all we have is a relatively benign tweaking of laws in their favour. Many of the new laws are definitely beneficial of course; I'd just thought I'd point out a comparison between todays and historical attempts to bridge the difference between what society is and ought to be.
They really didn't. They might have thought they were raising them a bit but never up to their level.
> In 1900's, some germans thought they saw jews as having excess privileges and need to be brought down.
They really didn't. Such propaganda was simply used to make people feel better about the hatred they felt, and to channel it wherever the Nazis wanted.
> In 2000's, feminists think men have an excess of privileges in society, and that they need to tilt the scales in women's favor.
They don't think it; they know it because that's scientifically proven. If you want to put it another way, women have a dearth of privilege.
> They're all instances of trying to pull society from what it is to what it thinks it ought to be.
Yes, in opposite directions.
> Also, women were never put in chains.
Seriously?
> If they thought they were being put down
They don't think, they know.
> there were many opportunities for them to have thrown down the metaphorical chains and shackles men have placed on them
And that's exactly what they're trying to, and have been doing at least since 1848, but it's slow work -- just like those other examples. Have blacks achieved parity with whites in America yet?
> Instead all we have is a relatively benign tweaking of laws in their favour.
First, it's not in their favor, but a little less against it. Second -- the problem of sexism is very different from racism in that women, while subjugated, have never been considered "foreign", and so the power struggle wears a different shape in either direction.
> ... historical attempts to bridge the difference between what society is and ought to be.
Of course it's everyone's duty to help shape society in the form they think it should take, but that doesn't mean the content of those attempts can be compared -- at least not so haphazardly.
The problem with that thinking is it ignores the way women are socialize by society and culture. The way people view themselves is influenced by the culture they grew up in and how society views them in their formative years and the influences they have from the media. These are subtle and not intentional.
You are only looking through your cultural lense.
Men are socialized to 'be smart', competitive, ect. Being a social, caregiver is what women are socialized to do. I never said that either gender, men included, can't do things outside of their roles.
Worse yet. We claim women are social in a positive manner, and then claim men being social are promoting a negative "bro" culture, something that isn't inclusive of women or has an explicit agenda if it is.
With various spherical-cow-in-a-vaccum-ish assumptions, if women and men are equally qualified, then, by logical implication fully half of all women are below-average, and there are millions of women who are more qualified than every single software engineer at several companies. Neither of these facts are really the point of comparing women and men as an aggregate group.
As a man, as a person on Hacker News, as a person with whatever hair color you have, how clever you are is just how clever you are. That's it. (And this is exactly why we wish to reduce subconscious discrimination: unless there's an actual statistical difference, nobody should be thinking you're more or less clever knowing just your gender, any more than knowing just your hair color.)
Your job is yours, and up to your ambition and capability. The existence of millions of qualified people who don't have your hair color -- and, frankly, millions of qualified, more social people who don't have your hair color -- isn't keeping you out of your job today.
It's bad to hear "Women aren't clever enough for programming" because years of research have failed to find rational basis for this belief. If there is rational basis for a belief (and if the belief is stated in a way that doesn't cause most people to react to it irrationally), then sure, let's say it.
I'd be thrilled to help you with lack of confidence in anything I'm qualified to help with. I'm not particularly likely to do so in a subgroup situation, since this is something you yourself say is "personally" yours, but yes. I'm also happy to support organizations that do help groups where the group is relevant, and definitely happy to support all people with confidence in group situations where there isn't any definition of the group.
Why?
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e...
Not that I would consider a google-link evidence of anything; the only thing that it is evidence of is what is "common wisdom". Secondly, a google search is different for everyone: mine showed a lot of links about how women are bigger users of social media, which hardly helps answer any questions in this context. Thirdly, the question is not whether they are more social in general, but whether they are more social in a context of mostly mutual strangers. Even though women might be more social in general, that doesn't necessarily imply that they are more social with strangers.
I don't view the google-link as evidence; more like a way of saying let-me-google-that-for-you-(that wasn't so hard, was it?). You know... kind of like so many other "women are different from men" are "obvious".
I guess you wouldn't like it here.
Break down those barriers! Just walk up to random people and try to find out what makes them tick. It will expand your horizons and make your life more interesting.
Stop making excuses about some perceived need to have an "excuse" and just be friendly to your neighbors. We'll all benefit.
Sure maybe in YOUR culture and place of residence that could be good advice but it could be horrible advice for other cultures/places.
People are also different. Situations are different. In some situations being approached by a stranger can be friendly and some situations it can be very very hostile. Depending on a lot of factors. There is a very serious need to understand when your approach might be hostile to the other party.
I find it interesting that I've been reading a lot of "in my culture/city/experience X therefore X is a universal truth" comments lately.
I am talking about things like this- Friendliness does not make friends in Japan - http://www.uri.edu/iaics/content/2000v10n1/06%20Blaine%20Gos...
The other implication was friendliness is a Good Thing and more friendliness is Better.
The idea that friendliness is even desired with [varying levels of] strangers is cultural specific. Or how much friendliness is acceptable or too much.
I am an oddity in my culture because i wish for much much less friendliness with strangers than my culture dictates is appropriate. I could go for far less stranger friendliness in my life. [Depending on the degree of stranger].
The most important feature of Bell Labs was the long hallway that forced all these very smart people to interact with each other on a regular basis. The reason "everyone" looks back on their college days with nostalgia is the connections they made so readily with others.
The article you linked to states: In all actions, Japanese prefer kindness over friendliness. Friendships form through kindness... I'm honestly not sure what the difference between the two is. The article seems to indicate it's mostly about smiling and over-sharing. Ok, so don't smile too much, remain courteous and kind. I don't see that being too far off, and the article also mentions there are more commonalities in the dynamics of friendships across cultures than there are differences.
Feel free to continue to live your life the way you see fit, the way that makes you the most comfortable and doesn't challenge you. I don't mean for this to sound judgmental; I really do believe you'll be missing out, but it's your choice to make and I don't at all fault you for making it.
The original comment I was replying to was this: People need an actual "excuse" to engage someone, like being at the same event or working together or practising the same sport. That's simply not true, but it is a quite common misconception. I thought I would disabuse the poster of that notion, but I didn't mean to imply that my own way of living life is the only one.
And i am CERTAINLY not opposed to engaging with strangers or challenging myself, in fact that is how i meet my partner, i approached a random stranger.
Connecting with other humans IS a good thing, but asking random strangers "what makes them tick" isn't culturally appropriate in some places and may lead to ostracism and embarrassment, not connection. Depending on your culture.
In any case, I'll make sure to inform others of what they're doing wrong, and that they don't need to be be "oppressed" by these "barriers". And to think, what we all wanted the same thing all along; we just needed you to remind us.
Nor how I live, so where is this mythical "culture" we're all so beholden to? Culture is just the actions and beliefs of a group of people. Historically humans have tended to be pleasant with people in their own group and remarkably unpleasant to "others". Usually this is because they don't understand anyone outside their own group, because they've never explicitly tried to understand them.
So yes, reaching out to others, learning from them, preventing the next world war, preventing the next oppression of a group because they are seen as somehow different from those in power, yes, that is a Good Thing.