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Comment by yottah | Hacker News Reader

I really think EU/NATO/US should step up covert and intelligence activities to overthrow the Hungarian government. A backwards and evil regime that has taken over Hungary should not be permitted to exist in the heart of Europe.

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This is what the US did to Brazil (where I live) and, trust me, when it happens it's never to protect a democracy but rather to prevent losses to American economic interests. Also, if you live there, you really don't want it. Or shouldn't want it.

I don't think undemocratically overthrowing an elected government is a great idea, even if it's really unpopular. At least wait until they fail to run elections.

Dude, calm down. Human rights violations absolutely have to be sanctioned, sure, but transparently and above board. To be honest, at a certain point I'm fully in favor of tossing Hungary out of the EU (it's no place for authoritarian regimes), but covertly overthrowing governments? Not cool.

How much are we willing to hurt an economy with sanctions and embargoes (Iran, Cuba anyone?), instead of focusing on overthrowing a nasty government?

I'm being somewhat facetious here, as current Hungary is far from the point where direct action against govt could or should be considered.

I'm just stressing the point that punishing the populace for the sins of the leaders is also uncool ceteris paribus.

PS: I'm Hungarian.

Well … I don’t think you can underestimate the threat of throwing Hungary out of the EU. But it’s also a politically risky move (there are large groups of people – maybe not majorities, but large groups – in many EU countries who do want out and any indication that that’s a realistic option politically, even if it’s throwing a member out, would provide lots of political cover for those groups), so ultimately unlikely to happen. Also, Russia would be more than happy to pick up any stragglers, and that can’t be good for anyone.

Honestly, I have no idea how the EU should deal with Hungary (or, if we generalise the problem, any member state getting an authoritarian government). I’m deeply, deeply uncomfortable with anything involving actual violence. That’s the Europe of that past and that Europe was a horrific place I never ever want to return to. The EU should be able to solve internal conflicts politically. That’s the issue here. And the EU can’t (and shouldn’t) force radical change inside countries – but it should be a vigilant watchdog for human rights. I’m just not sure exactly how to implement that in practice – but I’m certain I don’t want violence.

I live in Croatia, and it makes me uncomfortable there is a Pro-Russian and unusual regime popping up in Hungary. This thing needs to be acted upon and taken care of quickly.

you might remember that at the recent budapest elections FIDESZ won again.

Yes, they are a bunch of corrupt evil baby eating monsters, but they are also who the people keep voting.

I am not sure "let's remove democratically elected governments we disagree with" is the direction where we want EU/NATO/US to go.

They are Pro-Putin regime in a devious way and Russia is basically in war with Europe. I think they should face some kind of heat.

so they can over-win the next elections by campaigning as the Proud Small Sovereign David against the Evil European Union Interference? That seems a rather stupid move.

I'm not sure what you mean by "evil". If you mean "corrupt", sure. But it has never been a reason to forcefully evict a government, as long as they behave. I'm not sure Orban is more corrupt than, say, Berlusconi was, your average Romanian official, or the Turkish government. He'll do some damage, his friends will get rich, and at some point he'll be be out of office. Unless he starts taking himself a bit too seriously and attempts to turn Hungary into a dictatorship. Then that's a whole different ball game, and the EU would most certainly not stand for it.

In 7 years on HN this is the first time I've wished I could downvote a comment. I dislike Orban's policies as much as anyone, but subverting the democratic process of another nation just because you don't agree with the results is plain evil. Unless of course crimes against humanity are committed, but so far I see no evidence of that. This voluntarist mindset is diseased and profoundly anti-democratic.

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