This is the first time I've seen the movement appear on the front page of HN. I hope the discussion can be kept as civil as things normally are on here.
This is the first time I've seen the movement appear on the front page of HN. I hope the discussion can be kept as civil as things normally are on here.
Not any more than you'll find idiots in any movement - I would liken them more to the vandals that presented themselves during Occupy Wall Street.
I hang around the organizing points for the GamerGate stuff - people are remarkably level headed and respectful (and absolutely NOT driven by misogyny). There is no organized harassment happening, there is no corruption. Anybody attempting to agitate along those lines finds themselves massively downvoted/flagged/reported/etc.
Sarkeesian et. al. are quite intolerant of any kind of criticism or disagreement - the trolls are, frankly, being made out to be a bigger issue than they actually are (not that people making death threats is even remotely okay, I'm pointing out that those people do not represent the movement).
If you doubt this, I invite you to do the same. It really opened my eyes. Calling GG about misogyny or even about feminism has never been anything more than a form of well poisoning.
edit I'm getting the "submitted too fast" thing now, so I can't respond to comments directly. I will do so below.
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I ask anyone that points out "harassment" to provide direct examples of organized harassment, preferably links so the rest of us can see them. Someone downthread brought up the git repo containing the markdown file - how is this harassment, again?
* Regarding the #burgersandfries IRC - absolutely bullshit and absolutely disgusting. The name is even a reference to Quinn's personal life. That channel is on Rizon, is still up, and can be looked at on your own, but you'll note that this is not the organizing channel for gamergate (which is #gamergate).
Perhaps GG started out of disgust for Quinn (and her professional behavior is hardly beyond reproach), but tying them together for the purposes of discrediting GG is a genetic fallacy.
I'm not denying that organized harassment campaigns exist - but I am saying that #GG ain't it.
* Regarding how the GG movement can only be defined by what is done under it's banner
This line of thought allows any movement to be trivially discredited. Quite literally any movement involving strong emotions will lead to people doing stupid things. If you simply discard the entire thing based on that minority of people, you have been manipulated.
This would allow people who disagree with such a movement to expend the slightest amount of effort to do something (or even fabricate doing something) distasteful in its name as a form of attack. Please recognize that this possibility exists. Your answer to "drop the movement" is not feasible as that is an untenable sequence of events. 10 Movement starts, 20 idiot does something, 30 movment discredited, 40 goto 10.
* Regarding how GG isn't going after the big publishers
GG is about games journalism, specifically the journalists themselves and their lack of integrity, not what the publishers do. We can't exert enough pressure to convince, say, EA to stop doing underhanded things - there are simply too many people who will buy their content on a schedule (like the yearly Madden rehash) for any kind of boycott to succeed. Seriously, gamers have been trying for years on outrages that are about marketplace behavior rather than social issues. It does not work.
In other words, it's a matter of picking one's battles.
Exerting pressure on the journalists is another matter entirely. A journalist is only as good as their credibility - and showing a pattern of anomalous reviews or undisclosed connections is a great (and tremendously effective) way of exerting negative pressure on that kind of behavior.
The well is not only poisoned by its originators but entirely made from poison. The whole original premise about corruption of games journalism is absurd; if that's what they were going after, it would look entirely different, because it's mostly a big-business phenomenon rather than an indie phenomenon.
Edit: no, you can't "no true Scotsman" your way out of this one. The movement is entirely mis-targeted by ignoring the big publishers. They also claimed the "success" of getting Intel to pull advertising from a site, which just pushes the whole games journalism business closer to an industry press release republishing facade.
Speaking of Scotsmen, the recent independence debate (which involved "strong emotions" over things that were actually important, unlike gamersgate) was far more civil than this. Tens of thousands of people somehow managed to campaign without death threats.
Perhaps. But I am have been involved in (for example) movements around agile development, the Python programming language, and the need to hire more women in programming and other technical positions. None of these movements have, that I am aware of, generated fringe movements that have threatened people so they had to leave their homes, nor have they caused universities to cancel lectures over safety concerns.
If this "GamerGate" movement is, indeed, level-headed and respectful, then could we arrange for leaders of the movement to publicly and forcefully denounce the threats of violence? For instance, GamerGate leaders could organize a fund-raiser to provide a forum for Anita Sarkeesian to present her talk.
Any behavior like this would significantly increase my opinion of the movement -- of which I presently have an extremely low opinion.
There are no "leaders of the movement". There are a few Twitter/YouTube personalities that are popular and have been rallied around, but they don't control anything.
Most of the GG organizing takes place on anonymous imageboards and IRC, and most of it is through consensus along the lines of: "Hey, we should do X!" "That sounds like a good idea!"
..could organize a fund-raiser to provide a forum for Anita Sarkeesian to present her talk.
Counterproductive at best, considering that GG takes issue with Sarkeesian's presentation of the facts. Now, if she would agree to a moderated debate about same, that would be just about perfect. I would personally contribute resources to making that happen.
I'm not even sure what GG is trying to do by sending death threats to Anita and harassing Zoe Quinn. It just looks like they are doing it for it's own sake.
That is false.
You'll pardon me for refusing to take this kind of lazy, hypocritical, dishonest viewpoint seriously.
I fully expect this post to receive un-rebutted downvotes, too.
I have missed the part where those members sending threats were "denounced by everyone else". (Certainly they have been denounced by a few.) Where are you seeing that?
Those leading the outrage train against gamergate are doing a fantastic job of cherry picking while ignoring this larger trend.
And by the way, lest you think that the concerns about "false flags" are just paranoid rantings, it is a thing that has happened before.
[1] http://gamergate.giz.moe/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/faking-h...
It's well documented that the whole thing started as focused harassment of Zoe Quinn. Now other women are being harassed. The effects of the campaign is that women are withdrawing from publishing indie games or writing about games. Nothing is being done that addresses "ethics in journalism".
Regarding your edits: Somehow the willingness of gamergate perpetrators to condemn harassment of women only manifests when people are bringing up that that's what gamergate does, and is conspicuously missing when actual harassment happens and goes unchallenged.
It's a very thin veneer of civility. Somehow all the "battles" you "pick" just happen to be against women in no position of authority, mostly not even journalists.
In any case that well is poisoned now. You can either continue to argue in favor of misogyny, because that is what is associated with GamerGate and that is what it represents at this point, beyond anything anyone "involved" in the "control poitns" might want; or you can support human rights and women's rights.
It's irrelevant whether the harassment is organized or not. It's supported tacitly by the very existence of GamerGate at this point.
By supporting GamerGate, you are contributing in some small way to the inevitable death of one of these women. You are committing memetic terrorism. And you are just as culpable for the violence as everyone else involved: wholly. You are pulling the trigger, you are landing the blows. When the blood comes, it will be on your hands.
Bizarrely this means all links to anti-GameGate sites (like Kotaku) have to be posted via an archiving proxy, archive.me, as everyone on the subreddit apparently has the blocking chrome extension installed.
One rotten apple spoils the whole barrel.
The best that can be done is banning such people from participating in the discussion forums, but this doesn't control whatever they decide to do on their own.
Again - this is analogous to the vandals at OWS.
So I must ask, who on your side of the #GamerGate hashtag speaks louder and and commands more followers than Adam Baldwin?
If you do not possess the social capital to overpower the voices of unabashed harassers, then your continued association with the hashtag only damages your cause.
(Note that I speak as someone who once worked in games "journalism" and is completely fed up with how shitty it is (not that the games industry at large is really giving me much to hope for).)
"If you witness a group of issues, some relevant and some irrelevant, you will feel a need to respond to the relevant issues.
If you witness someone responding to the relevant issues of the group, you will think they are responding to the group of issues.
The exploit, taken from this, is then clear: Group up a bunch of issues (Apples, Oranges, Watermelons, Rat Poison) and then people who show concern about the Rat Poison will seem to be showing concern on Apples and Oranges. And people who are supporting Apples and Oranges could easily be mistaken for supporters of Rat Poison."
And yeah it started off in the worst way possible, so 'giant mess' is an improvement but not very good.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jb6q5/boyc...
Contains: a promotional poster of "boycott of the day", a pastebin full of "sample letters to use", a list of email addresses and twitter names to contact and talkint points when attempting to make Blizzard stop advertising at Kotaku, a site which is apparently "anti-gamer-gate".
I believe she's been receiving harassment and death threats from well before the recent "gamergate" stuff.