Comment by lettergram | Hacker News Reader

Comment by lettergram | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

Judging from the 5 or 6 cops I know personally (neighbors and what not), there's basically nothing you can do if they want something from you.

They will lie or provoke you into doing something, even worse, one of the cops I know had a story about how someone said, "no, you cannot search my vehicle." The cop then asked if he wanted to be arrested for resisting arrest, and the guy gave in because he has no idea what his rights really are. The cop who was telling me seemed pretty smug about it, tricking someone into searching his car...

The point being, it's very hard not to get yourself into a pickle of the police officer really wants you. Most officers have somewhere between 2 - 4 years of formal education, most of which is about how to trick people, not about law. If the police officer suspects you're at fault for anything (or even is just having a bad day and doesn't like your look) he will arrest you.

That being said, always say, "I'm not refusing, but you may not search my car (or persons)" and don't go with them unless you are arrested. Both require them to get a warrant, something they wont do unless they need to. If your pulled over and asked why, always say "no." (fifth amendment right and all).

Finally, always, always, always be super nice and professional. Act innocent and you wont make the officer angry.

Don't you Americans feel ashamed of your country? Your country is beginning to stink. In many respects it is worse than third world countries.

How is this different from some third world country where police stop cars to collect bribes from drivers?

Well I'll tell you. In America the whole administration, the judiciary, the legal profession, the government at federal,state and county level are in on it. It seems that it succeeds basically because it is too expensive to get justice through the courts, this means that the courts and legal profession are in on it too. In third world countries is just the police and their superiors who get the money, and it generally petty cash.

It looks like it is not terrorists who are going to destroy America after all. Your corrupt governments, banks, judiciary and law enforcement will do it on their own.

A justice system which only the rich can afford is not a justice system in principle or in practice.

The funny thing is that it has been going on for decades and it looks like the Washingon Post just noticed, as though they didn't know about it ages ago.

First off, you are using a TON of blaming statements (which are mostly ad hominem) and are using a trolling technique to attempt poll others for feelings. It's a nasty habit and your comments only serve to make someone angry. I believe you are aware of your intent and only use it to illicit fear.

We still have enough liberty here that this article can run in the newspaper freely. That is evidence enough America is far from stinky. Do we have unfair levers of power here? Yes. Are we attempting to determine how the levers got into a few people's control? Yes. Will we figure out how to stop them and keep it from happening again? You bet we will.

And none of that will come to pass because of your crappy comments. It'll happen because we are Americans and aren't going to allow our liberties to being eroded by a bunch of fear mongering asshats. And THAT, my friends, is a blaming statement.

Eh, their post was their opinion, and they've got some decent points. Your accusation of ad hominem is misapplied--go look it up.

The observation was made that the real damage to the US would come from within and not without. This seems trivially easy to "prove" if you keep up with the news and history.

The observation was made that broad swathes of government and private practice were in league to perpetuate these issues. Such behavior is expected because of the mechanism of action at work: the rot and the power is in the legislative and judicial systems, so of course those folks will be acting in concert.

The observation was made that in other "corrupt" countries officers routinely relieve travelers of excess pecuniary baggage, which appears to also be the case in some parts of the US.

These are not ad hominem propositions, nor were they presented as such.

> their post was their opinion

This is a false statement. "Your country is beginning to stink." is a blaming statement that attempts to lay out pre-support of the opinion "In many respects it is worse than third world countries". However, in the subsequent context in which it is used the statement is presented as a logical conclusion or fact. It is then followed up with another blaming statement meant to seal the 'logic' of the opinion, "It looks like it is not terrorists who are going to destroy America after all. Your corrupt governments, banks, judiciary and law enforcement will do it on their own."

There is no proof that America will be destroyed by corruption inside government, banks or the judicial system. There are observations that we are threatened by some individual's actions, but there are also observations we are doing something about it. The claims we will be 'destroyed' because we are 'corrupt as a third world country' are simply false. There is no evidence this will occur and it is pure conjecture.

While I agree with you it probably started as an opinion the comment, in general, their comments consititued an irrelevant conclusion. Irrelevant because it was full of blaming opinion from someone outside those being blamed, and conclusion because it was presented as fact. As it turns out, irrelevant conclusions fall into a broad of set of relevance fallacies, which themselves are 'ad hominem' arguments. Look it up.

> we are Americans and aren't going to allow our liberties to being eroded by a bunch of fear mongering asshats

I can't count how many times I've heard this comment along the lines of "hurr durr this is Murica and no one is taking muh freedom away". No, your freedoms are already gone and it looks like you haven't woken up to it yet.

> "hurr durr this is Murica and no one is taking muh freedom away"

You really don't need to use language like this. This isn't Reddit.

Wait, an article balances out the police seizing private assets without a crime for 3 decades to the tune of a hundred million dollars a year?

There's something wrong when police have been funding themselves with $30 billion in essentially stolen money.

I think you don't really get my point. Many countries don't have any meaningful rights or rule of law of any kind. There are many countries whose citizens will not challenge the authorities in any form or manner, because the systems give them no redress against any abuse of power. Even if they are rich the legal systems don't exist. Witness Khordovsky and his problems with the Russian government.

In America these institutions exist, but the legislatures have turned them into revenue collecting bodies for the federal,state, local governments and the law enforcement bodies.

It is like law enforcement and the legal system have turned into feeding troughs for the whole band of officials involved in it.

If you are not rich enough to give your lawyer a fair share of what they steal from you, you are not getting it back. If you are rich enough they don't bother stealing from you because they know you have the power to get it back.

This sucks. Apparently police and prison officers unions and PACS or whatever their called fund political campaigns which result in preserved or even bigger budgets for law enforcement, then turn around and use the increased income to fund the politicians next time around, to keep the cycle going (except Detroit), which results in more borrowing by the government from which the banks also get their share, pauperising future generations even more.

It is an interesting country.

> I think you don't really get my point.

I don't think you get mine about speaking for others and making blaming statements. You can't say what I get or what I don't get, nor can you form blaming opinions and then try to speak them as fact. This behavior itself is where problems start, not where they are ended. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand and everything to do with solid lines of communication between those that agree to disagree.

I hear you when you say we have problems. We do. Like other countries, we have certain traits that make up who we are as a culture. Part of our culture, at least historically, is firmly objecting to too much government control. Given the recent reaction to the NSA's overreach, I'd say we are moving forward on the issue. Unfortunately for the impatient, this can be painful. We're also know for dragging our feet and whining about change while it is occurring. We're not perfect, but we're trying.

Yea, it's not great anymore, but with the exception of France; it's still the better alternative. That Governor who was caught taking money made me proud of our system. As to the whole Cop problem--I don't have any answers, except buy dash cams.(If you drive a vechicle). The more outrageous footage we have of these guys abusing their power the Better.

Yes, whatever you do, please don't come here on a visa. It's awful. Terrible. A horrible, nasty place. Run away, far, far away while you still can. You should never come here. Tell all your friends.

Disgusted by it? Yes. Ashamed? No. "Ashamed" implies that I expect better, or that I am responsible, neither of which are the case.

I like most of my neighbors, and I am proud of what our country aspires to. Alas, the rich and powerful are a huge lot of real assholes. So, yes, we're a bit overdue for another round to take them down a notch or two.

Once in a while, things do happen in the U.S. to piss off the assholes:

* abolished slavery

* gave women the right to vote

* changed tax structure to try to encourage more of a meritocracy (alas, largely rolled back)

* overturned prohibition (again, losing ground due to war on drugs leading to Al Capone 2.0)

(maybe only once every two generations or so, but there you go)

Alas, there's a list of screwups that could parallel the above list, but we're trying...

You're mostly correct in your descriptions of justice in the USA. However, as an USAian I don't feel ashamed, because I don't feel responsible. I just live here. I certainly would like the USA to suck less, but translating that into shame is something that just doesn't happen in my head.

I also don't blame people for the terrible places in which they live either. I don't blame anyone for any repressive regime in which they might live. It's not fair and it's unproductive. I feel my decision to not blame people for any repressive regime they might live under is important to reforming those regimes, and ultimately having sympathy for those regimes' targets.

Don't come here. It's terrible. Just terrible. Do not apply for a visa here. It's a TRAP!

I'm a well educated and skillful professional and can do my job from basically anywhere in the world. I wouldn't even vacation in the US. I am terrified of the legal framework I would subject myself to, especially as a citizen. I'm perfectly willing to work for clients in the US, but face to face meeting will take place OUTSIDE the US.

It's not too bad as long as you're rich and white.

Don't come here. Don't even work for US clients. They are nasty, nasty I tell you. I'm one of them.

> They will lie or provoke you into doing something

I would love to see a law on the books that forbids law enforcement officers from lying to witnesses or the accused to extract evidence or confessions. After all, it's unlawful to lie to them; the playing field should be level on both ends.

Are you a cop? You gotta tell me if you are.

I would imagine such a law would apply to cops who are representing themselves as cops. This would go a long way to establishing the police as a group of people that I, as a law abiding citizen, can trust.

"No I don't."

> That being said, always say, "I'm not refusing, but you may not search my car (or persons)"

I can't imagine why you'd want to preface a refusal by stating "I'm not refusing." That just seems willfully obtuse.

The "I don't consent to searches" line seems a lot more appropriate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kVX6NIPzB0

Aren't you ashamed to have such aquaintances? I would punch the guy in the face as soon as he shared tat story with me.

EDIT: Don't you think you should at least call him out on such unacceptable behaviour?

And then you would likely serve jail time for assaulting an officer. This is the exact problem with the system as it currently works. There is a significant imbalance of power that allows police to go on power trips with no real way to stop them.

And I would also have my opportunity to explain to a judge and/or jury why I punched him in the face...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com