Comment by berntb | Hacker News Reader

Comment by berntb | Hacker News Reader

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>>There are plenty of alternatives around, but I don't have to propose alternatives to be able to criticize something.

You can't list an example that has worked for a big population in an industrialized world -- and given them an open society.

It seems like complaints that someone should do something about cancer, because it isn't nice.

The problem is how -- just complaining that the world could be better is not really interesting (I expect better on HN).

>No, I didn't say there is no alternative and I didn't preach.

But on a direct question, you had no alternative.

You really seem emotionally involved and complain about the world system, which you would probably have to kill a large fraction of the world's population to change.

>Are you a fatalist?

Read what I said -- do tests of different organizational models but far from where I live, please. The failure modes are too scary.

[Edit: I am not joking, to run a society with an untested economic system and nudge it along seems like doing brain surgery on yourself. In addition, left wingers seem too much like a cult of true believers to be pragmatic, then you get a "strong man".]

If you really want to find my opinion, google for "democratic peace theory" and "resource curse".

The countries not opening up and embracing capitalism and good governance are the ones with problems. They are either oil countries ("free" money for the controlling junta) or poor dictatorships with high walls, big oceans and really poor population (Syria, North Korea, Cuba, etc). Modern monarchies, if you will.

For countries with capitalism and good governance, it is a question of time until their problems are solved.

>>that's due to medical and technological progress which does not depend on capitalism

Again, capitalistic models [Edit: added previous word] was needed for industrialization, afaik.

And the US health care system is even more fscked than my local European one. (Is health care the reason why Americans are fleeing to Cuba in droves?)

Edit: Changed an "or" to "and", "as" to "than".

">>There are plenty of alternatives around, but I don't have to propose alternatives to be able to criticize something.

You can't list an example that has worked for a big population in an industrialized world -- and given them an open society."

Well, to use my car metaphor: You are just saying that because I can't show proof that electric cars have worked in a country on a large scale we can't build electric cars.

With this way of thinking we should abandon any attempt to of modernizing anything and only use proven things. new things can't work, they must be proven first but when we don't try we can't prove anything. Perfect Catch 22.

"It seems like complaints that someone should do something about cancer, because it isn't nice."

Your are saying that cancer is natural and we aren't allowed to do anything about it.

"The problem is how -- just complaining that the world could be better is not really interesting (I expect better on HN)."

I showed you one alternative, Parecon,

http://www.zmag.org/zparecon/parecon.htm

which is a whole economic system based on participation and cooperation of everybody not just a few big players and you ignored it.

Also I don't complain, I just say that there are alternatives. You are only blocking any thought there might be of an alternative solution because in your opinion capitalism is either a natural law or God given but not made by man.

"But on a direct question, you had no alternative.

You really seem emotionally involved and complain about the world system, which you would probably have to kill a large fraction of the world's population to change."

Again, stop ignoring my suggestions. There are many alternatives. I offered you one, Parecon and you have chosen to ignore it but don't lie to me that there aren't any.

Also stop suggesting that there must be a kind of genocide involved in change. That's ridiculous.

">Are you a fatalist?

Read what I said -- do tests of different organizational models but far from where I live, please. The failure modes are too scary."

There are several organizational alternatives on a local level, the most popular throughout the world are parallel local currencies that don't allow capital accumulation. But you are right: You are plainly scared! You are afraid of anything that might mean a change. You're irrational. You won't even buy an electric car when 90% of the population will drive one.

US corporate capitalism and soviet state capitalism both installed industrialization by brute force but that has happened 80 or 100 years ago. The same model implemented in China and elsewhere would kill the planet.

Also studies show that capitalism is only good for a small percentage of a population both on in nation and on a global scale. Moreover capitalism just broke down this/last year, don't you see it? It's now completely financed by tax payers. How can you ignore that and tell me that capitalism works fine?

>>You are just saying that because I can't show proof that electric cars have worked in a country on a large scale we can't build electric cars.

You are suggesting a bit larger problem than electric cars, it is more like nuclear driven cars that would literally explode with Megatons if any of them crashed...

(No, that is not an exaggeration, considering the repeated number of mass murders/starvations of at least millions wherever these experiments have been done -- China, Soviet, North Korea, Kampuchea, etc.)

>I showed you one alternative, Parecon,

I asked specifically for: "You can't list an example that has worked for a big population in an industrialized world -- and given them an open society."

Your answer was not relevant. but you knew that -- there is just no example -- and you lack the integrity to admit that.

>You are afraid of anything that might mean a change.

First you are upset by my lack of humanity in not wanting to change the world economy -- and then you call me coward for not wanting to do experiments that traditionally kills tens of millions of people.

Not coherent. But you knew that.

BTW, your extraordinary claims lack references (e.g. "capitalism is only good for a small percentage of a population" is not how Eastern Europe tells it!).

But then, you prefer news stories to Wikipedia with its references -- so there might not be enough TV programs on the net...?

Never mind, since you couldn't answer a single of my points regarding hunger above -- and lacked the integrity to admit it -- I only skimmed this.

The only question is if you're trolling or fanatic. In either case, you're a waste of time.

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