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We begin therefore where they are determined not to end, with the question whether any form of democratic self-government, anywhere, is consistent with the kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world.

This should not actually be a complicated inquiry.

http://snowdenandthefuture.info/events.html

Surveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999

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Surveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself.

That's quite an oversimplification.

Surveillance provides knowledge.

Knowledge is power.

Also oversimplified, but I'm pretty sure that's the line of reasoning. I'm not convinced that it's wrong.

But if you work from the premise that if totalitarianism is evil, and an inevitable function of power, which itself is an inevitable function of knowledge, then you've proven that knowledge is fundamentally evil, haven't you?

There may be some dimension of truth here but i'm not entirely sure the premise does more good than harm.

You're missing an important qualifier: "concentrated"

Downvoter: I'll take that as a compliment.

Yeah keep going, if it makes you feel good.

The fun part about dealing with people who are attracted to catchy slogans and binaristic thought generally is that they tend to get really touchy when you call them on it.

Which is what seems to be happening, here.

Complaining (or even mentioning) downvotes is usually a bad rhetorical strategy. Just ignore the votes altogether.

It's also, by it's nature, off-topic (unless it expounds on the reasoning), and therefore worthy of it's own downvotes for that reason alone. It's not all that different than real life, it's just harder to ignore the social cues when they are represented by a number.

Excellent point.

Quite to the contrary it seems, but I digress.

"That's quite an oversimplification." is no less a catchy slogan, and labeling it "binaristic thought" is no less binary if that's all you write.

Sorry if it came across that way, but if so, it wasn't my intention.

It's just that I find it weirdly and sadly ironic that quite frequently, among those in our community who are the most strident and radicalized in their opposition to the surveillance state -- we find such incredibly simplistic and/or manipulative styles of thinking, and an impulsive tendency to resort to various forms of intellectual bullying... that are the standard tools of the systems that they fancy themselves to be in opposition against.

The second meeting took place in October 1988 at a summer resort in Western Virginia, sad and grey this particular autumn. The Americans turned up in force. Bill Bostwick, from the Department of Energy was the Chairman, Barry Leiner from the Department of Defense and Vint Cerf were present. The European representatives were thin on the ground: a German and British representative plus François Flückiger.

In 1991, 80% of the internet capacity in Europe for international traffic was installed at CERN, in building 513.

“You can't solve social problems with software.” – Marcus Ranum

And your point is?

the kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world.

Many European states (e.g. the Netherlands) have been surveillance states for a long time. People seem happy with it: As long as you live a standard life, get a mortgage, a house, children, pay taxes to support the ever growing police state, nothing will happen to you.

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