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> Credit cards are the equivelant of saying 'i only want american customers and everybody else can go to hell'. Let's just hope your bussiness is viable enough in just the US to be this ignorant.

In the UK I do as much online shopping as possible on my credit card. I get the added protection of the Consumer Credit Act[1], and prizes![2]

[1] http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75...

[2] http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/best-credit-ca...

Why are credit cards 'evil'? Honest question.

I mean they don't go spend themselves, are protected 100% against fraud (in the US at least) and if paid in full every month, cost nothing to the card holder.

If anything, it is not a company's fault that Northern Europe has social/cultural hang-ups for a mode of payment!

Because credit card system is not sustainable without various hidden fees, overdrafts, default rates and so on.

Is it? I have never paid any hidden fee, or overdrafts. Set a reminder for every fifteen days, pump up the credit card and everything sails smoothly.

Merchant fees are more or less hidden: somewhere between 1% and 5% of your purchase does not go to the merchant.

That's the same no matter what method of payment you use.

PayPal charges merchant fees. Most banks charge fees for direct debit. Bitcoin has transaction fees. Western Union has transaction fees. Even if you only accept cash, checks, and money orders, it will cost you time and fuel to deposit them at your bank.

The percentages might differ, but as long as you let someone else facilitate your transactions, there's no way to avoid paying some sort of fee.

The parent said (emphasis mine):

> Because credit card system is not sustainable

and you say:

> I have never paid [...] and everything sails smoothly.

The parent is talking about the system as a whole, while you are talking about your individual usage/experience. Is it not possible that your usage is subsidized by those less financially organized?

You're going to have to actually provide real information to back up such an extreme claim if you want to come across as believable.

What is inherent about the credit card system, at even a modest flat rate of 7%, that makes it unsustainable exactly? An examination by logic says that it is very sustainable, banking history says that it is very sustainable.

It's absolutely no different in concept than a bank loan or line of credit, so long as the lending agency vets their customers properly based on the ability to pay. If you do that, it's an extraordinarily convenient and useful system.

Banks have been making money on 7% loans for centuries. There is absolutely nothing unique about borrowing money on the spot via a credit card based on a previously set credit line.

From my experience, getting your money back from a debit card hack is way harder then a credit card. That is why I travel and pay online with my Visa ...

Serious question: Other than a credit card, how can you pay for things online? Paypal? Bitcoin?

You just transfer the money from your bank account to the bank account of the merchant. There are various methods to do that, I prefer giropay[1]. If it's a merchant you regularly use like amazon you allow the merchant to directly withdraw[2] the money from your account.

It's not like this is some weird highly advanced stuff. Surely that's possible in the US as well?

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giropay [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektronisches_Lastschriftverfa...

It is not generally possible to do this in the US. Amazon allows it, but most places do not because it's not a very in-demand service — using cards is safer and easier than giving out your bank information, so not very many people insist on the latter.

How could a bank transfer be less safe? I don't know the US system but if I give out my bank account number the only thing someone can use it for is to send money to me.

On the other hand if someone malicious gets my credit card number they can use it to buy stuff and I have to go through a lot of trouble to get a new card.

It's somewhat the opposite in the US. With your bank routing and account number someone can make out bad checks or EFT pull from your account. Halting or reversing this can be quite difficult and in some cases it isn't possible to get your money back.

With credit cards the liability is on the merchant that accepts the card to verify that the person presenting the card is authorized to use it. Card issuers will reverse charges and leave the merchant out the money in the event of fraud.

Didn't know this...I'm not in the US.

In the US, an account + routing number pair is basically the keys to the kingdom. Yes, it is kind of scary.

I have a Debit card that I just run as a credit card everywhere. I use it to pay for everything in the offline world (gas and food mostly). I use it online as well, but I prefer to use Paypal which is hooked up to my bank account.

I'm probably less protected against fraud, but I haven't had a reason to worry yet.

Debit card

Can't debit cards generally be used as credit cards?

Debit cards are the same as credit cards, but without the credit, the protections, or the reward points. As long as you can maintain financial discipline, there's really no reason to be using a debit card.

A small niggle, because I see a lot of people say this: At least in the US, many banks do extend the same protections to both credit and debit cards. My wife and I both had our debit card info stolen in separate hacks over the past few years, and both times our respective banks just asked us a few questions, credited the money back to our accounts and sent a new card that automatically replaced the old card upon activation.

How long did it take for your bank to return the stolen funds? I heard it takes at least a couple of days in most cases.

The scary thing about debit cards is that when someone steals money with it, they're stealing your money. So if your account is drained and your rent is due tomorrow, you're in trouble. With credit cards, on the other hand, the thief steals the bank's money. Your money is safe the whole time.

For me at least, it was credited immediately, with the caveat that they would remove the same amount if an investigation showed that the funds had not actually been stolen.

Credit cards can cost more for merchants to process, sometimes they pass this cost onto the consumer with a credit card surcharge.

It's also easier to track your spending on a debit card as you can check the remaining balance at any ATM rather than waiting for the bill or going online.

Every place I've been to that surcharges credit cards also tries to do it to debit (see gas stations) so your line of reasoning there is suspect.

I don't have a source to cite, but I think in general, Debit cards swiped as credit cost the merchant the same or maybe more. There are some recent court decisions that may have capped these.

High fees for this stuff is the reason by so many banks changed their retail business model to things like Totally free checking(when you make 12 debit card purchases each month).

Yes, but without the credit part.

But I mean, in the context of accepting payments online, debit cards aren't really an alternative to credit cards, are they? The two go hand-in-hand. Merchants that accept credit generally accept debit, so you're fine in that situation if you prefer debit.

I also live in Europe and I've had no problem paying Linode with a debit card.

Which country are you in exactly? Because AFAIK, in most Northern European countries people have credit cards (or at least debit cards).