Nissan's ‘Self-Cleaning’ Car Prototype [video] | Hacker News Reader

Nissan's ‘Self-Cleaning’ Car Prototype [video]

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86 pointsrelampago59 comments

(Disclaimer: I had a fair share of sucker punches with self-cleaning surfaces..)

Approaches towards self cleaning surfaces have been seen in the lab since a long, long time: They range from photocatalytic concepts (e.g. TiO2/SiO2/polymer hybrid coatings for house paint) to surfaces with a mixture of -OH/-CH3/-F (hydro-/lipophilic and mostly repellent) end groups that can be produces by plasma treatment, and many more.

There is a good reason that very little of these applications have ended up in mass production: The stability and durability of the film surfaces. Once you get a surface structure damage on, say, your "lotus effect functionalized" bathtub, house wall, car body, dirt starts to accumulate on this spot. The german car industry had quite a bunch of projects with car windows without front wipers (minimum speed 20 km/h to be effective), there have been a lot of projects for self cleaning house paints using the sun - but so far there is no effective product on the market. But of course there are a lot of patents..

I have no idea if Nissan found a way to make a cost effective, self cleansing film coating that can stand the test of gravel, acid, and time. If they succeeded, then it is a true accomplishment. But for the reasons listed above, I somehow doubt that.

What if this were an option at a carwash? I use full synthetic oil because it allows me to increase time between changes. I would pay more for a car wash that lasted longer as well. If the problem is a need to re-apply, can you get a coating that could be sprayed across the entire car without a need to mask out bits like in the video?

It would do bad things to windscreens and the effectiveness of wipers.

Remove wipers and you have the issue that if someone failed to get a re-apply the effectiveness would diminish over time.

You have a point. How often/long do you wash your car, and how much $ do you spend on this? I have to admit, I do not wash my car very often. Pity they did not report anything about the cost of deploying the "dirtophobic" car paint film. If one could make it a quickly applicable, inexpensive "spray and go" option that allows to regenerate a dirt repelling film - why not. But there must be a reason why "Nissan says it has no plans to offer the paint as standard equipment, but will consider making it an option".

I am also wondering why they neglected the windows in the video clip. Might be a problem with transparency of the film, or a difference in the nature of the film adhesion to regular paint and glass. It is a pity that they did not provide any data on mechanical stability and film degradation. Without this data, I still do believe that this is a PR thing. Alas, it is wired.com.

They are using Ultra Ever Dry.

It is not transparent.

There's good reason to have shown this on a white car because of this fact. 1. white give nice contrast for dirt but importantly 2. white nicely hides the frosty appearance of Ultra Ever Dry.

Check out the ars technica article - the UED video at the top shows work boots frosted over with the stuff. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/03/the-internet-demanded...

well I am sure I speak for a few others, I enjoy washing the car. Its relaxing and it also lets me find all those little oopsies. That being said, I wonder if this surface would apply well to clear bras? I can wax both the paint and the film that is the clear bra without any noticeable differences just spending a second to insure no build up where the bra ends.

Reflectivity of paint is another concern, like how rain x does to windows in that while it looks clean there are discernible patterns of dirt there. Is this totally clean or can you see the residue of fine particles?

The film they applied, assuming it is similar to the current variety of super hydrophobic coating are not entirely transparent so that would not working in an automated carwash.

That said, in the UK (London) it looks everybody use hand carwash, so maybe there.

This is one of the reasons you should wax your car regularly. The wax helps water bead up and run off instead of sticking to the paint, and when it comes time for a car wash, what did stick comes off more easily. Once water stops beading up, it's time to wax it again.

Very interesting, I wonder the environment hazards, if any, of such technology.

Yes, and this is Ultra Ever Dry, so not some secret new Nissan technology.

I got excited about ultrahydrophobic sprays for a day or two, but the indications for use are a reality check. Avoid prolonged exposure to UV light (i.e. the outdoors). Avoid prolonged exposure to water(! e.g. can't coat the toilet bowl). Avoid scratching (don't touch it). And so on.

It would seem like a great candidate for a free spray-on update at your neighborhood dealership... the same kind of loss leader for maintenance that oil changes are.

I see this as an interesting business lesson for startups, but even more general.

First, what a great marketing angle, a self-cleaning car, how cool is that! I imagine 6 o'clock news stations across the country showing clips from this video tonight.

Second, what a great up-sell opportunity. Now every oil change service done by Nissan can include a new $50 charge (or whatever the market will bear) for re-applying the self-cleaning paint.

Third, could they even push an environmental angle? Ie. litres/gallons of water saved by not going through a car wash?

So, with one new feature Nissan has gained free marketing, and an incremental revenue source for their dealers. Not bad for a mature market.

The cost of reapplying would be pretty high. Look at the amount of masking-off and prep work they do. You go in for an oil change and tire rotation which would normally take an hour but instead have to pick your car up the next day because it has to dry.

I get a free car wash with each service of my car. That takes long enough.

They are only painting half the car.

It's not because of that. They are also covering all the plastic components (maybe it attacks plastic?) so it's still a lot of work even if you don't have to cover half the car.

That's why this is only offered on new cars, I imagine that Nissan would provide the dealers with some kind of mask template for each model of car they sell and the service mechanic throws this mask over top of the car, lines up the 4 corners and begins spraying. Heck, devising a quick way to put the mask on for a quick turnaround could even become a patent making this unprofitable for other dealers.

Regardless, my point was mostly acknowledging that even in mature industry's there seems to be room to innovate.

On the rainy days the Nissan cars would look much prettier among all these dirty cars.

I guess in such a case the whole brand would benefit. Every single car would be like an advertisement with all the spotlights on them.

Even better, they didn't actually develop anything.

Ultra Ever Dry (http://dry.technology/index.html) has been around for a while now. It is pretty remarkable.

The only downside is that it needs to be reapplied (and it cannot be used on windows). It wears off at a rate depending on how much abuse it takes - anything rubbing on it will hasten its decline.

EDIT: To dvcc's point below, this sounds very negative.

It is actually positive - earned media, essentially for free. Amazing job by Nissan marketers.

On the latter point, so its not exactly great for a car. A good idea for an advertisement, but not such a practical one.

> The only downside is that it needs to be reapplied (and it cannot be used on windows).

Reapply ever 5000 miles when you rotate the tires, and use RainX on the windows.

Or it could be a push to give dealers something to do when everyone starts buying electric cars.

If the coating is anything like Neverwet it's not the initial application and demonstration where the issue lies, but in the long term use and breakdown (aka will it still work after being in Arizona heat and Alaskan winters?)

RIP car washes! Wow and that self cleaning paint action, I just had to see it. At this point I just think a ban on wired.com is called for on HN. Whatever nice discussions we've had from wired is probably not offset by the constant shit from this domain. I know I've sung this tune before.

I'm tempted to agree, bu maybe your "tune" would be more persuasive if it weren't coming from a throwaway account?

It's not a throwaway account, per se. It's an anonymous account.

>At this point I just think a ban on wired.com is called for on HN.

Why is this uninteresting to the audience, yet every time Tesla releases a PR piece it appears on the front page? I'm not sure either really "deserves" much attention here, but that's how it works.

OK I've seen a dozens of different products like this. First time 8 years ago. Why are they not in production yet? Why can't I buy it in shop? Is it highly toxic or just works for a year? #confused

You can actually purchase Rust-Oleum's NeverWet in stores now: http://www.rustoleum.com/en/product-catalog/consumer-brands/...

It's not perfect - limited lifetime etc., but there are ways around that (re-applying annually?).

In general though, the reason you haven't seen these much is that it just takes a while to get from the lab to market!

Here is a t-shirt that is available to preorder and has similar features. It says the effects will hold for "up to 80 wash cycles".

http://silicshirts.com

There has been some concerns about carbon nanotubes could have asbestos-like properties [1] if not handled properly.

Maybe that could be part of the reason?

[1] http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0113/130115-chemistr...

Wouldn't carbon be easier to decompose than a mineral fiber?

It's not technically "self-cleaning" because it doesn't really clean itself but more dirt-repellant. Self-cleaning does look a lot better marketing wise though.

Blogspam for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwoGsCAKsxU

Yes. We changed the url from [1]. Wired is one of those sites that produces some solid articles and a lot of spammy fluff. We're not ready to lightweight it [2], but we're close.

1. http://www.wired.com/2014/04/self-washing-car

2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7658520

That's great until it breaks down (and it does). You can't get a basic detail, since the supporting products also won't work with it.

Once it does start breaking down, you have issues getting basic stuff like soap bubbles to work as needed to help clean the spots that are broken down.

If it can't be layered, without adverse effects to the color of the paint, trouble.

If it can't be removed for repainting, etc. trouble.

Probably usable for some cases, but not going to get traction in the broader market until someone can fix long-term cost of ownership issues.

Have some car zen. Watch Ammo NYC videos on youtube https://www.youtube.com/user/AMMONYCdotcom

Can we just use this on our cars? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPM8OR6W6WE

I like it a lot - but I don't think it'll ever make car washes completely obsolete. There are quite a few places that can still get dirty, e.g. tires, rims, wheel arches, lights, grilles, windshield wipers, mirrors, and ofcourse not to forget the big elephant in the room; the interior.

If this really catches on and becomes commonplace in most cars, I think this in the end will complement the car wash industry just fine.

The hydrophobic/oleophobic coating bay could be another option at the car wash.

That's a great idea.

And as someone else pointed out - most likely it'll have a limited lifetime. There you go, repeat customers.

Unfortunately it's pretty cloudy even when you apply it right. If not for that, it would be great for windshields and helmet visors etc.

Ars Technica experimented with the stuff last year. It looks like a lot of fun :) http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/03/the-internet-demanded...

I remember a similar German technology from way back here on HN, and found it: http://en.dienanoexperten.de/produkte.htm

But in the end it looks like they didn't expand at all. I would be curious to know what is the problem.

I'm assuming this is made with nanotechnology similar to Neverwet. I haven't looked properly into it but I remember reading that there is suspicion that nanotubes might be dangerous like asbestos. Imagine cars with this coating crashing, sending dust of that stuff into the air..

This is another link bait situation from Wired, which seems to be happening often nowadays.

This is just some "stuff-resistant" paint that works better than the paint on cars now. It would be nice if all cars had this, but I'm sure that's just a matter of time / manufacturer.

The product used appears to be Ultra-Ever Dry and is sold and marketed by Florida-based Ultratech International http://www.spillcontainment.com/everdry

Some guy put this on his 4x4 over a year ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRlQAhlwb2E

Looks like it's using something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEH6tDLKcVU

Look at that headlight on the treated side of the car. The cloudiness these types of applications add makes it look like the headlight of a decade old car.

But they masked the headlights in the treatment process. Which also raises the issue, you'll still need to wash your headlights and number plate.

I don't think they did for the vehicle they took the picture of at the top of the Wired article. There's a clear difference between the clarity of the headlights.

Cars...meh. One word: Dinner plates.

That would be pretty cool!

While that would be nice from a cleaning perspective, from an eating perspective that might make certain meals awkward to eat and prepare.

So pretty much just a hydrophobic coating, which is the same as properly sealed and waxed paint.

I find it interesting that they're marketing this as a self-cleaning paint.

So they just coated the car in Never Wet? Got it.

In practice it would probably mean that while almost nothing sticks, whatever does will be a total bitch to take off :)

Just like antibiotics and superbugs. Survival of the nastiest.

That's really cool.

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