Comment by malkung | Hacker News Reader

Comment by malkung | Hacker News Reader

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> from garbage sources by useful leftist idiots from Huffington Post and like.

I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume?

> That's just so pathetic that is not even funny. You ignore opinion of the most authoritative Jewish organizations in Ukraine. > Yeah, apparently guys from Tel-Aviv and from Sweden see the situation better than people who actually live in Kiev and closely observe folks from Svoboda for decades.

So, for you, Russian sources are propaganda, and EU and Israel sources are misinformed (apparently by the Russians), and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter. That is indeed ridiculous. Did you ever wonder why the Ukrainian parliament, where Yanukovich's Regions Party had the majority, adopted anti-Maidan laws on January 16th, but in February was already unequivocally pro-Maidan? Do you think the armed masked "peaceful demonstrators" storming government buildings might have something to do with it?

I think those armed masked people are the reason why the Ukrainian Jews wrote such a letter. I don't see how Jews can possibly tolerate the Nazi symbols and slogans of the Right Sector (see above for images).

Here is what a chief Ukrainian rabbi has to say about "peaceful protesters" [1]:

"I told my congregation to leave the city center or the city all together and if possible the country too," Rabbi Azman told Maariv. "I don't want to tempt fate," he added, "but there are constant warnings concerning intentions to attack Jewish institutions."

Do you have any theory as to why he'd say that?

1. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.5757...

> I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume?

What an amazing argument, because there are only two media outlets in the world -- Fox News and Huffington Post. No, I prefer Völkischer Beobachter obviously.

> So, for you, Russian sources are propaganda, and EU and Israel sources are misinformed (apparently by the Russians), and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter.

EU is generally ok, nobody supports Putin, except few marginal media outlets (or marginals inside of mainstream outlet), so you need to mine for a good quote -- Russian propagandists even had to leak taped Paet conversations to mine good for them quote.

> and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter.

Good sources matter (like independent journalists reporting facts), authoritative opinions matter (like opinion about local antisemitism by local Jewish community). Opinions of some leftie guy from the different part of the Earth, who decided to mine some quotes for one side and call that "analysis" -- no, sorry, thing like these don't matter.

> Do you think the armed masked "peaceful demonstrators" storming government buildings might have something to do with it?

This has everything to do with the president who at first stole billions, then decided to shot in his own citizens killing almost 100, and then fled away cutting all communications, including communications with his own party.

> I think those armed masked people are the reason why the Ukrainian Jews wrote such a letter.

Nice conspiracy theory. Strangely, people like Joseph Zisels were not afraid to speak out in the Soviet Union (where Zisels was held in prison for some years for his anti-Soviet views), but now they are so scared that even write panegyrics about neo-Nazis.

> Here is what a chief Ukrainian rabbi has to say about "peaceful protesters" [1]:

Oh, jeez. You just can't not to bring here all the pro-Russian lies? Haaretz lied. See "How newspaper Haaretz distorted words of Ukrainian Rabbi" [1]. Long story short -- 1) Haaretz chronologically moved the statement by the rabbi. Reuven Azman told about it on 20 February, the day when snipers killed more than 50, so it made sense in context. Haaretz published it on 22 February, when Yanukovich already fled and the situation was stable. So Azman talked about the danger _from Yanukovich_, not from protesters. 2) Haaretz misquoted Azman, his statement was not about all Jews, but only women and children. Extended to all Kiev's Jews by Haaretz. 3) And then Haaretz claimed that Azman had connections with Kremlin -- and that was the claim Azmad actually considered to sue them for.

Now Rabbi Reuven Azman just like everybody else denies Russian lies about neo-Nazism [2] -- "Chief Rabbi of Kyiv and Ukraine: There is no Ethnic or Religious Hatred in Ukraine".

[1] http://www.forumdaily.com/kak-gazeta-haaretz-perevrala-ukrai... (in Russian)

[2] http://uacrisis.org/chief-rabbi-of-kyiv-and-ukraine-there-is...

> What an amazing argument, because there are only two media outlets in the world -- Fox News and Huffington Post. No, I prefer Völkischer Beobachter obviously.

To call a news source "leftist idiots" to contradict what they say was an amazing argument. Very convincing.

> Russian propagandists even had to leak taped Paet conversations

It would be very wrong to hide them. Who hired the snipers to shoot policemen and protesters is a hugely important question.

> Good sources matter (like independent journalists reporting facts), authoritative opinions matter (like opinion about local antisemitism by local Jewish community). Opinions of some leftie guy from the different part of the Earth, who decided to mine some quotes for one side and call that "analysis" -- no, sorry, thing like these don't matter.

You have a very complex system of criteria which news source to trust, which somehow allows you to ignore the obvious. Still, you have to convince me the paramilitary groups in Maidan are peaceful, do not wear Nazi symbols, and do not chant Nazi slogans, and their leaders are not now in the government.

> Nice conspiracy theory.

Yeah, very feasible.

> all the pro-Russian lies ... Haaretz lied.

So Haaretz (Israel's oldest daily newspaper) is a pro-Russian news source? Do you realize you insult any news source that is not pro-Maidan and then call it pro-Russian? I find it ridiculous.

Whatever Azman said and why he said that, it is not possible to take this seriously (text from your link):

There is no anti-Semitism in Ukraine’, was Azman’s comment to the Russian propagandists’ claims

if you saw this [1] or this [2] or this [3] or this[4] or this [5] or this[6].

I actually feel sorry for him - something or someone forced him to say this obvious nonsense.

[1] http://image.zn.ua/media/images/original/Apr2013/58868.jpg

[2] http://bstore.9tv.co.il/images/2014/01/16/b1a881c4546b30b293...

[3] http://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/8777171...

[4] http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-tyanhybok....

[5] http://nsnbc.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/nazi_punk_ukraine...

[6] http://revansh.org/wp-content/uploads/Ultras_narodnoeveche_m...

Haaretz verifiable provable lied, but it doesn't matter for you, because it's the oldest Israel newspaper. 3 chief Rabbis of Ukraine and the Association of Jewish Communities of Ukraine say there is no neo-Nazi threat from Ukrainians while it exists from Russians, but it doesn't matter for you, because you found few photographs of neo-Nazis in 1 million crowd. OK. I don't know, at this point the discussion as constructive as discussion with 9/11 truther, quite frankly.

Really, your photoset is hilarious. [1], [2], [3], [4] are photographs from 2013. [4] is especially funny -- Tyagnibok uses his _left_ hand to point to something, but you are trying misrepresent it like he is making a Nazi salute. If you want to find a fake Nazi salute photograph, at least find one where the target uses their _right_ hand. Like Merkel on this photo: http://westsidetoastmasters.com/resources/book_of_body_langu... On [5], [6] there is one guy with old Svoboda symbol it dropped 10 years ago and one guy with 14/88 on his shield. Not much, considering the fact there were 1 million of persons with very different background on Maidan. Look, of course there were neo-Nazis on Maidan -- there were 1 million with plenty of radicals. But it was an extreme minority, and it wasn't supported even by the leaders of notable nationalistic forces like Svoboda and Pravyj Sektor. There were very few antisemitic incidents recorded on Maidan -- most notable one was when one poetess recited antisemitic poem from the Maidan tribune (btw she was banned from tribune for that). And it was the most notable one. Compare it with Gubarev, the _leader_ of pro-Kremlin forces in Donetsk, guy completely supported by Russian propaganda, who was real neo-Nazi from RNE: http://imgur.com/a/QeuZp Compare it with Crimean Russians, who attack women for wearing Ukrainian flags [1] and old ladies [2], who kidnap journalists and shot in peaceful Ukrainian activists.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgizvwCywQ

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Obuy2QEQBE

The fact the photos are from 2013 or someone at Maidan was wearing an old Nazi symbol of Svoboda does not justify the statements "There is no anti-Semitism in Ukraine" and "Svoboda has nothing to do with Nazis". Rather the opposite.

I have no problem recognizing Gubarev is/used to be a Nazi. But this does not mean the "peaceful activists" at Maidan had nothing to do with Nazis.

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