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Comment by javert | Hacker News Reader

This is just a nasty and unjust way to bring down ESR, whose intellectual contributions are valuable.

I don't personally know Theo De Raadt but if he spends his time bringing down other people, he's probably not a very happy person himself.

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The comments you perceive to be nastily and unjustly bringing down ESR are presumably being made by people who do not agree with you about the value of his intellectual contributions. In fact, those comments are directly rebutting his best-known intellectual contribution. So your objection begs the question.

Indeed. A lot of people just see the criticisms and think that he is unfairly targeted, but you don't have to look far to find the obnoxious and arrogant behavior that earned him the derision he attracts today.

Theo de Raadt's argument (as presented here) isn't logically valid. A character attack is not an argument. So he's just hurting his cause. That's my point here.

As an aside, I'm not really begging the question because I defended ESR's "Linus' Law" thing in a different comment.

>Theo de Raadt's argument (as presented here) isn't logically valid

Yes it is.

>A character attack is not an argument

His argument is not a character attack. It is pointing out two problems with Eric's hypothesis. The reality that simply saying "lots of eyes" doesn't actually mean there are lots of eyes. And that the eyes have to be attached to people who actually know what bugs look like or they won't be found. ESR himself does not bother to look at code, thus providing counter evidence to his own claim that open source software is seen by many eyes.

>ESR himself does not bother to look at code, thus providing counter evidence to his own claim that open source software is seen by many eyes.

Do you not see how this basic statement is completely illogical?

"One guy doesn't audit code much, therefore nobody audits code." Seriously?

One guy is the example, not the proof.

Then where is the proof? This code was found wanting years ago....

The proof is the fact that we have just gone through two historically tragic, enormous, and terribly stupid security holes, each big enough to land the space shuttle on, either of which could have been easily caught by ESR or anyone else simply shutting their mouth and reading the code.

It was known to be bad several years ago and an article to that effect was published.

That's the point?

Thank you for using "begs the question" correctly. It is far too rare to see that on the web. </tangent>

A+++++ Speedy delivery. Well packed. Top notch. As listed. Great value. Good communication. Would do business again.

Read the quote in context. It makes a lot more sense: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129261032213320

Not many people would know Theo "personally" but you do know his reputation. You do right?

That's all that is required to give his statements some weight.

Do you know Theo?

Because the Theo I know was kicked out of the netbsd project for being an asshole. He hasn't changed, really.

Since you've been so generous to offer you opinion of Theo, I think it's only fair and balanced for me to offer my opinion of Eric the Flute, in a way that is consistent with Eric's own name dropping protocol.

I believe that Eric the Flute was disrespectful to Linus by labeling ESR's "Many Eyes" theory "Linus's Law".

I believe that Eric the Flute was disrespectful to RMS by relabeling RMS's "Free Software" movement "Open Source".

I believe that Eric the Flute has made a career out of bogging down the FOSS world in internal doctrinal disputes, and that his "many eyes" argument gives people a false sense of security in open source software, and that kind of pap diverts attention and money away from supporting qualified eyeballs and assholes who do the incredibly difficult and tedious work of meticulously reviewing code and fixing bugs like Theo De Raadt does.

And I believe that Eric the Flute is being a narcissistic hypocrite when he writes stuff like this recent blog posting, with numbered instructions for where, when and how to drop and not drop his name. Specifically, number two, which gives me the right to drop his name in this context:

Namedropping "ESR" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5266

    2. Do drop my name if by doing so you can achieve some
    mission objective of which I would approve. Examples
    that have come up: encouraging people to design in
    accordance with the Unix philosophy, or settling a
    dispute about hacker slang, or explaining why it's
    important for everyone's freedom for the hacker
    community to hang together and not get bogged down in
    internal doctrinal disputes.

So it's important to "not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes", huh?

My mission is to explain why it's important for people in the FOSS community not to base their careers on tearing other people down. Why can't we all just get along, huh?

I'd like to hear Eric the Flute explain how his goal of "not get bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes" squares with his decades-long ongoing feud with RMS about "free software" -vs- "open source software" on which he's based career?

And I'd like to ask him to please stop encouraging his followers to act as if there's some kind of war going on between Free Software and Open Source Software.

For example, Eric the Flute's friend and fellow right wing global warming denying libertarian gun nut internet celebrity "Tron Guy" Jay Maynard (who fawningly replied to that blog posting "FWIW, I apply my own fame in much the same way, and follow this set of rules both for myself and for my friendship with Eric. Like him, I didn’t set out to become famous.") has taken a stand on wikipedia and his Hercules emulator project about how there is a war going on, and he ideologically opposes Free Software but supports Open Source Software, and it's insulting to him for anyone to insinuate otherwise:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hercules_(emulator)#So-ca... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jay_Maynard#Hercules_and_...

    The Hercules development community generally objects
    to the term "free software", and in several instances
    contributes to Hercules specifically as a reaction to
    the misuse of the term. As long as the portal and the
    categories use this misleading term to apply to
    software that is freely available and redistributable,
    please do not add Hercules to them, since it implies
    support for the "free software" side of the ongoing
    political war that does not, in fact, exist. -- Jay
    Maynard (talk) 08:57, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

    Please do not ascribe to me a viewpoint I do not hold.
    Hercules rejects the term "free software", and many of
    its developers - including me - contribute to the
    project on the explicit basis that it is not part of
    that world. This has been hashed out at the
    Talk:Hercules emulator page.

    Calling it "free software" here ascribes to me a view
    that I not only do not hold, but actively disagree
    with. Please don't count me as a supporter of "free
    software", the FSF, or Richard M. Stallman, and please
    don't enlist me on your side of the "free
    software"/open source war.

    I believe calling it "free software" is argument by
    redefinition, and fundamentally dishonest. It's also a
    naked attempt to glorify a major restriction of
    freedom for programmers by nevertheless calling it
    "free", in the same vein as "War is peace". The
    concept of freedom is far too valuable to demean it in
    that manner.

    As for "but it's free software anyway", the reverse
    argument, that "free software" is all open source, is
    just as valid - yet "free software" zealots reject it
    out of hand and say "don't co-opt our work!" Well,
    that sword cuts both ways.

    I am not a member of the so-called "free software"
    movement and never will be. Please don't insult me and
    misrepresent my views by calling me one. -- Jay
    Maynard (talk) 13:22, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I wonder where "Tron Guy" got those ideas about this "ongoing political war" about "Free" -vs- "Open Source" software, and why he's getting so bogged down in internal doctrinal disputes?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Eric_S._Raymond

    Like Lubos Motl, his crankery is a counterpoint to his
    area of brilliance, not a negation of it. And I
    disagree with just about every political opinion ESR
    has. (And have actually argued them with his good
    friend Jay Maynard.) - David Gerard (talk) 20:46, 29
    July 2010 (UTC)

    It saddens me that Jay "Tron Guy" Maynard is one of
    ESR's fans. Turns out the guy who made cosplay
    respectable for grownups is a right-wing asshole --
    wonder if he's a brony? (Anyway, it seems he's given
    up lead maintainership of the Hercules mainframe
    emulator, so, um... yay?) EVDebs (talk) 23:42, 10 July
    2013 (UTC)

For more background on Eric the Flute:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond

Um, I've had Theo in my house. I've known him for a long time, we've had technical conversations about the kernel that 99% of the people here couldn't understand (maybe it is me but I am so sick of "look at me I've figured this out" and it is stuff you should have learned as an undergrad. Go code more and talk less.)

My opinion is until you have done as much as Theo has done you should maybe not talk so much.

being an asshole and getting shit done are orthogonal characteristics.

Theo has earned my respect and the right to be as much of an asshole as he wants. The important things he's so good at doing often require that of him, so it's not counter-productive or self defeating.

I also have a tremendous amount of respect for RMS, and forgive his personality quirks, although I'd never want to work for him. Unfortunately, a lot of his personality quirks and ways of communicating are self defeating. But more importantly, his beliefs are totally logical and consistent and well thought out, and he sticks by them. It's his priorities and his way of communicating them that people have problems with.

He's also got a brilliant sense of humor, that a lot of people just don't get, and take offense at, when he was just trying to make them think. But at the same time, he's incredibly easy to wind up by mentioning Open Source Software. But I think he's in on the joke and it's just a theatrical performance, like Saint IGNUcius.

My Emacs Hacker Boss from UniPress Software and I ran into him at a scifi con, and my "Evil Software Hoarder" colleague asked him "I heard a terrible rumor about your house burning down. Is it true?" He fired back without missing a beat, "Yes, but where you work, you probably heard about it in advance." We all had a laugh and no offense was taken: he's got a sharp sense of humor and he's quick on his feet!

Here he is being a total dick, by chastising someone for posting a baby announcement (who is now 21 years old) to a mailing list about having dinner on the other side of the continent as he was on. But he's fucking brilliant and hilarious and makes some excellent points that are totally consistent with his beliefs, even through he wound everyone up and was repeatedly told to fuck off in various ways, which he took in stride.

http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html

"You people just have no sense of humor. I thought the original message was pretty funny and made a few good points (if it didn't, nobody would have been offended). I guess it's a shock for smug self-righteous breeders to learn that not everybody in the world thinks babies are cute and special. -Wayne A. Christopher"

"Finally, someone read the message as it was intended to be read. -RMS"

"I'm somewhat surprised by the idea that a mere message from me could torpedo the happiness of parents. I'd think it wouldn't even come close to doing that. Not that I wanted to do that. The most I thought it could do was to discourage the posting birth announcements. -RMS"

RMS is like William Shatner, in that he's in on the joke, and can have a good laugh at himself, and at least he isn't the mean kind of narcissist. To extend that metaphor further than I should: RMS = Captain Kirk, Theo = Spock, ESR = Harvey Mudd, Microsoft = Klingons, and Free Open Source Software = Tribbles.

OpenSSH.

That one project and the integrity with which he has run it forgives all the problems you might perceive him to have had.

And yes, sometimes you have no option but to be an ass hole to get your point across. Linus has equally been accused of the same.

And here's to the fond yet irritating memory of the late great inspirational asshole, Eric Naggum. http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-de/ErikNaggum

"But there is still one thing that America has taught the world. You have taught us all that giving second chances is not just generosity, but the wisdom that even the best of us sometimes make stupid mistakes that it would be grossly unfair to believe were one's true nature." -Eric Naggum

"I learned a lot from talking to Erik on matters technical and non-technical. But one thing I learned, not from what he said, but from the meta-discussion which was always there about whether to tolerate him, is that I think we as people are not all the same. We make rules of manners and good ways to be that are for typical people. But the really exceptional people among us are not typical. Often the people who achieve things in fact do so because of some idiosyncracy of them, some failing they have turned to a strength." -Kent Pitmann

"The purpose of human existence is to learn and to understand as much as we can of what came before us, so we can further the sum total of human knowledge in our life." —Erik Naggum

http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman/2009/06/24/erik_naggu...

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