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Comment by Xcelerate | Hacker News Reader

What I find interesting is the fact that modafinil and caffeine ranked almost the same. I've always thought it would be interesting to try modafinil because of the widely claimed cognitive benefits and how it has less drawbacks than caffeine, but if it ranks essentially the same as caffeine, there's really no point to trying it that I can see. Caffeine doesn't really do that much to be honest. It seems as though none of these really have any profound effects on mental capability.

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The difference between caffeine and modafinil come down to two things for me - - length of effect (caffeine seems to pick me up for had ran hour to an hour with a 30 min lead time - vs 12 hours with modafinil with a 45-1hr lead time) - side effects (if I am really tired and have to get a big day out, I might end up havering somewhere between 6-12 'doses' of coffee. Cf. 200 mg modafinil- by 3/4 through the day on the caffeine track I am jittery, have a noticeable essential tremor, my eyes are gritty - all this vs nothing on modafinil- nothing for me at least)

Few notes: Modafinil was a massive productivity booster while I was at uni. I would occasionally do a 36 hour period of solid study or work or whatever to cover a whole bunch of content and take up to 600mg modafinil durin this period, sometimes followed by a normal 8 hr sleep, then repeat. It was wonderful; I covered huge sections of my curriculum efficiently. The only side effect I have ever really felt from modafinil is a slight bit of 'coke mouth' when taking a high dose, and a minor bit of jaw clenching a la MDMA at the high doses as well.

Now I use only when work is very busy and I have been stupid with my sleep, 100mg mane for a couple of the days of the week seems to work very well although I am not an 'every day' doser and always prefer to be around 36 hours from my last dose if I am going to drink or take any other substances (I find I don't get the sensation of drunk if still on modafinil)

Edit: to more directly respond to your post, as opposed to ramble, you note that caffeine doesn't do that much to your mental capacity. Modafinil doesn't really either. The studies that have looked at mental capacity, creativity etc whilst under modafinil cf. amphetamines cf. placebo have all shown decreasing returns for people of normal or high baseline cognitive function. Modafinil is not going to make you smarter. But if you take it in the right environment, it can make you a lot more productive

Be careful with regards to the jaw clenching. I used modafinil extensively several years ago as part of a clinical trial/research study participant. I now have stress fractures in two of my lower teeth from the jaw clenching, and will either need to eventually replace those two teeth with implants or (hopefully) stem-cell derived replacement teeth.

The body is not built for constant stressing, in many ways.

I spoke too soon:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitness...

New 'painless' treatment to repair teeth (indiatimes.com)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7252950

I guess I don't need to worry about my adventurous clinical trial days after all.

One other big difference, in my experience but also heard the same from others, is that caffeine makes it hard to sleep (like cocaine, etc.) whereas modafinil doesn't, it just makes you not think about the fact that you need to sleep. If you take modafinil too close to when you decide to go to bed you'll be able to go straight to sleep, even if the effects of the drug only just kicked in, which is very different to going to bed after drinking a couple of coffees or taking some coke, or other stimulants. (Of course, YMMV.)

By the way, what is 'coke mouth' - just a numb feeling? I've never felt anything from taking modafinil (though never used particularly high doses, or used particularly often). Don't know if 'coke mouth' is something else that I've never experienced?

Ah yes I forgot to mention the sleeping. I've also been able to get great effects (in terms of 'recovery') by taking modafinil before bed if I only have between 1-3 hours available to sleep, then getting up and having a good productive 18 hour day. Although I dream a lot more, but I consider that a bonus.

Haha 'coke mouth' is overly chatty, will speak at length about anything. Sorry for the lingo

Ah right, that's interesting, never found modafinil to make me chatty. Coke on the other hand..

I'm a little skeptical about that. I wonder about having two considerations (benefits/drawbacks) apparently boiled down to one number.

I'd hazard a guess that the level of enhancement both bring are about the same for many people... but that the drawbacks of caffeine are more or less something that everybody's used to.

For me, using adrafinil to get by on less sleep was considerably more desirable than using caffeine.

Then again, the drawbacks of caffeine are strong enough for me that I generally don't use it, so I might be an outlier.

Caffeine sensitivity can drop very quickly. To me it takes about 200mg to notice much from caffeine. Maybe you've simply not tried high enough doses (be careful - caffeine withdrawal can get nasty)

I use modafinil quite regularly to defer sleep to work on projects through the night, and the difference from caffeine is very noticeable to me - to get the same effect from caffeine means jitters and noticeable increased heart rate.

Don't expect to get mental abilities above your normal rested self for either one of these. You should expect to be able to keep focusing for longer periods, including when tired, though.

More importantly to me than the immediate negative effects of caffeine is that I can take breaks from modafinil at any time, for any period of time, and feel no withdrawal. If I use large enough doses of caffeine to regularly make it through a night without sleep, and want to take a break from it, I need to step down my caffeine intake slowly or risk a week of intense headaches, diarrhoea, shakes in the evening, and fever.

Caffeine is nasty stuff...

I am this way:

-caffeine does nothing to me; I can drink a coffee in the evening and go right to sleep; I can drink water all day and have problems sleeping; It just doesn't have any effect on me at all as long as sleepiness and concentration are concerned

-when I take Moda, caffeine somehow starts having huge effect: one cup of coffee or tea even makes me focused and willing to do stuff and there is just no sleepiness regardless of how tired I am;

I am not sure if my reaction to caffeine while on Moda is what people usually feel when they drink a coffee or "energy drink" but the effect is awesome :)

Many say modafinil gives you an ability to focus deeply on things for long periods of time, which caffeine doesn't really do. The downside appears to be that the "big picture" view sometimes seems to be lost.

I'm not sure that kind of thing would show up in this survey.

Yeah.. I know this is just hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

Edit: Here's a comment on this very post which reflects what I say above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7249637

Some people are less sensitive to caffeine. Maybe you're one of those.

Personally I'd like to try it, but it's prescription-only where I live...

Unless possessing prescription-only medicine is illegal where you live (doubtful), you can just order it on the internet. I don't think it's a restricted drug anywhere.

Be careful, in the country I live in (Austria) it is illegal to import prescription drugs. Customs made me pay a fine of about 60$ for trying to import Melatonin (and I didn't get the Melatonin either).

Amazing. In the US, melatonin just sits there right on the shelf where anybody who feels like can buy it for a couple bucks. No prescription, no ID, and extremely cheap.

The U.S. is somewhat idiosyncratic in classifying melatonin as not being a drug at all, but rather a dietary supplement, akin to natural/alternative-health stuff like St John's wort, fish-liver oil, or the various herbs used in traditional Chinese medicine. Therefore it doesn't even get to the prescription vs. OTC decision, since dietary supplements are basically unregulated, as long as they don't make medical claims on the label or in advertising.

It is a Schedule 4 drug in the United States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Schedule_IV_drugs_%28US...

Same schedule as Xanax,Valium, Ativan, Ambien...

It is in the US, schedule 4. Oddly armodafinil metabolizes to the same thing and isn't restricted.

Yes Armodafinil is in Schedule 4 and it is a stereoisomer of Modafinil. You're thinking of the prodrug Adrafinil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrafinil

There's a few reasons why Adrafinil isn't scheduled. It wasn't ever approved by the FDA or marketed in the US and never used heavily in the US, thus the DEA never bothered to regulate it. When Modafinil got FDA approval, the DEA felt the need to evaluate it.

Adrafinil was used in France and other parts of Europe, however Cephalon is no longer allowed to market the drug in France, and they have discontinued it.

People build up a tolerance to caffeine.

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