Comment by neumann | Hacker News Reader

Comment by neumann | Hacker News Reader

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May I share with you two pieces advice my father gave that I take with me everywhere:

- Never say no - always negotiate.

- If you don't ask, the answer is no.

The reaction you shared is not particularly business savvy. Business relationships (contrary to lots of shitty analogies out there) are not like a friendship/romance.

>Leave or don't. If I'm your manager, the moment you expect me to counteroffer I'm planning on getting rid of you.

Why? What possible rational reason is this your reaction?

> No offense, but you just told me, "Hey, I'm shopping around."

Yes, they did. You just received an extra piece of information to use as a manager. Maybe this requires a re-evaluation of the current situation?

> No offense, but that means, as a manager, I'd better start shopping around, too.

Maybe or maybe not. That is one of the possible outcomes. But, it is not the only one. This is called 'jumping to conclusions'. Always negotiate. If you don't even think to ask, "is there anything that would make this person stay" then the answer is no.

> And, you want to leave a company on your own schedule rather than the company's schedule.

Of course. What wouldn't they?

And I might add that double the salary is a good reason to re-negotiate. You're not jumping for 5-10K, which may be reason not to negotiate ("Hey, he's jumping at the drop of a hat, if I keep him he'll jump at the next offer"), but when you're looking at a severe discrepancy in valuing an employee, it's worth the discussion. For most people a 2x salary is something you can't put down, even if you absolutely love your job. I think most people would understand and if you have a good transition plan you won't burn any bridges.

The counter may or may not be the full 2x. They may counter lower and try to keep some fuzzy items like "You know what it's like here, you enjoy your job", etc.

The counter may involve more responsibility. Why is company Y valuing you at double? Do they expect you to take on different responsibilities? That's definitely going to be a factor in the discussion.

> The reaction you shared is not particularly business savvy. Business relationships (contrary to lots of shitty analogies out there) are not like a friendship/romance.

Rational reason? As a manager, I have deadlines to make, planning to carry out and crises to solve. You just added yourself to to my upcoming crisis list and impacted all three of those areas--especially if you are a star performer.

Ask for a raise? Sure, we can talk about it. Unhappy? Let's figure out how to fix that.

However, people are creatures of inertia. Once you've broken that inertia to the point that you have another job offer, let's be honest, there's probably too much that requires fixing in order to make you stay and make you happy.

And, you are also not considering the impact of this on the other 10+ people I'm managing. I don't want them to necessarily start interviewing to possibly get a raise even if I'm the better employer/job. Yeah, they may find that out, but it's a distraction, the grass is greener, etc. Or there may be a temporary bump while some competitor's group staffs up, but then there will be a corresponding layoff (seen it)--oh, gee, thanks, now all my salaries are up even after your group cratered. I was a junior employee when that happened and the group rehired some of those people (whom we desperately needed)--at a 20% salary cut--that was a management failure for the history books-- but it was a good lesson to a junior employee about understanding your negotiating position downside.

All told, if a good employee presents me with a competitor's offer I'm 99% certain to say, "Sorry to see you go. I'll give you a good reference." I don't take it personally as I've left jobs for better salaries. That's the nature of the game nowadays.

Now, I will admit that a salary jump of 2x is unusual although I have been in that position. If that happens, the manager or the company have failed dramatically (in my instance it was both). Or, someone else really needs that employee (that was also the case for me). Either way, the employee should take the new job.

Most managers do not view "I am looking elsewhere" as a time of negotiation unless it is a highly valued employee. Even then it is wise for the manager to start looking around too because the likelihood of the employee leaving is high. However if the employee asks for a raise rather than saying "I have another offer", then it is a negotiation. Because the manager also knows that if the employee does not receive a raise, then he or she will likely become unhappy and leave.

I agree with your general premise that most things are a negotiable. However it also depends on the situation and how the employee and employer approach the situation. "I got another offer so you should match it." is not a good way to approach a negotiation unless you are a star employee.

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