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Those commenters have very justified disdain.

They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc.

Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo%28a%29pyrene Those compounds are 1000 times more harmful than lead.

They are making Kiev to be very bad for living quite fast.

So, in short, protesters are stupid judging from several points of view.

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I come from one of your "former Baltic USSR republics" (actually a country with a long history before being occupied by soviet Russia).

I saw the changes from gaining freedom from Russian occupation and joining the EU with my own eyes.

We gained so much from EU, I don't know were to start.

Financially: we got a lot of our infrastructure built with EU funds (roads, etc.), if you see anything modernized even in the remote places of my country, you usually see a EU sign next to it.

Legally: there are always discussions about EU legislation, but a lot of it makes our lives better. Most recent example: smoked meat products will be allowed to be produced only with smoke, not chemicals.

Culturally: I used to be living in a land of grumpy cats interested only in themselves. To some extent it still is that way (see http://imgur.com/z5rYv). However the open borders policy has a big ongoing effect: most of the people have seen (or seen the effects on their friends) how people behave and communicate in the Western Europe. Majority of people have got more friendly, polite and positive about the future.

Citizen of a neighbour of "former Baltic USSR republic" here. We also gained so much from EU membership that it's hard to describe in full. But it's also hard to notice how every single piece of existing infrastructure was improved with EU money, and many new things were built - roads, transportation, as well as playgrounds and football fields.

Yes, we have a lot of complainers here, but they mostly blame EU for either what particular neighbour countries did to us before we were even a member state, or they blame EU for whatever anti-EU crap some British newspapers produces this month (Some newspapers in UK don't like EU, they write nonsense about legislations like the one with juices or water, the news spreads and people here believe it. Seen this many times).

TL;DR: this side of the world, joining EU is a Good Thing for the people.

EDIT: a reply made me realize that I'm not sure if it was The Guardian or another British paper that spins anti-EU nonsense, so I removed the name.

> whatever anti-EU crap The Guardian produces this month (Some newspapers in UK don't like EU, they write nonsense about legislation...

The point is a good one, but you may be confusing the Guardian with e.g. the Daily Mail or the Telegraph, both right-wing anti-EU papers. The Guardian is centre-left, and neutral/pro-EU.

Updated. I'm not 100% sure now if what I read was in The Guardian or another British paper; I tend to confuse them sometimes. I stand by the rest of my comment though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia#Ethnic_groups is closest to the demographic graph of Latvia, for example. It stopped to grow right after Russian occupation ended.

Take a closer look to the conditions in which most people live from where you have come. Or at their prospects in life. Or prospects of economy. I think that will change your opinion slightly.

Russians moving into the country during Soviet rule and moving out after it seem to explain the graph pretty well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Russians :

The number of Russians in Latvia increased significantly during the Soviet occupation of Latvia when the size of the community grew from 10.5% of the total population in 1935 (206,499) to 34.0% in 1989 (905,515). It started to decrease in size again after Latvia re-gained independence in 1991 falling to 26.9% (557,119) in 2011.

No, it doesn't fully explain changes. Numbers don't match.

Take a look at another statistics - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Latvia#Vital_st...

Number of births per 1000 had fallen right after end of "Russian occupation" and never ever regained 14.2 right before Latvian independence.

The graph on the same page shows that there is no collapse in the amount of ethnic Latvians in Latvia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnic_groups_in_Latvia.pn...

Your point being that fertile people are happy people?

Directly answering your question - No.

There's a point of time where Latvia went EU route, namely 1995. Nothing changed at that time. The trend started in 1991 (when USSR was split) continued until not very far past. The most important consequence of that trend is low fertility.

I also would like to comment on your question. From what I saw in my life, happy people are fertile people. The people who feels support from all directions are fertile people. And also happy ones.

Do you honestly believe in what you are implying? Just because population grew - therefore people were happy in USSR? I was born in Lithuania, a country which was occupied at that time and even though I don't remember much there's lots of people to tell the story. A story no one in their right mind would chose to live in. Stop thinking you know anything about how we live and what we want because you're just being an ignorant idiot.

Russian population also stopped growing after USSR collapsed.

Half the Latvia left to UK. Others to follow.

FYI, Baltic states and ex-ussr-satellites are doing great in EU. Sure we still got a long way to go. But current state is good enough. Well, at least 10x better than Ukraine, Belorussia and other ex-ussr states that stayed together with Russia.

Many Russians/Ukrainians/Belorussians come to ex-ussr-now-eu for shopping and medical procedures. Why? Stuff is cheaper and better quality here in Lithuania. And salaries are higher too :)

Source: Born and living in Lithuania

I know a number of Belorussians, and they all want to move to the EU. They also regularly drive to Poland for shopping, because it's cheaper and more things are available there :)

Hell yes! Folks from Saint Petersburg shop in Finland. They even order parcels to Finnish addresses next to the border because Russian mail sucks badly. Once I was crossing from Finland to SPb and I was questioned by customs on whether I've bought my stuff in Finland. Apparently, everybody's doing that and they are trying to tax it. Goods are unreasonably expensive in Russia. I was living in Netherlands which is not particularly cheap but Russian prices for the same stuff are 2x NL price normally. Incomes are lower and inequality is hellish.

TLDR: cleptocracy sucks.

The Russian mail "sucks" because there was a sudden horrifying jump in mail packages volume. Russian Postal Service wasn't prepared to that. It is doing progressively better as time goes.

If you want to talk about cleptocracy, let's talk about US a little bit. Let's start from yellow light duration scandals (from the top of my head): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_camera#United_States_...

Russian mail struggles with that jump for 20 years at least. I am 34.

I had no problems sending and receiving mail packages 10 years ago. I am 42, BTW.

1 I dislike very much the fact of being dragged into a discussion of this kind. Problems of Russian Mail are universally known.

2 Circa 2004 two my parcels arrived to different post offices late and cut open. There was no valuables inside (I wasn't that naive.) Ever since I used express services (DHL, TNT, PE)

3 I heard similar stories from other people (late&open)

4 Recently I received two packages by Russian Mail. They arrived late (1 month travel time) but were not open. An improvement.

5 Still I (we) use tracking to pick a parcel as local offices don't notify receivers. They let a package bounce silently. Forewarned is forearmed.

6 Lady at the post office was very kind.

7 Before receiving my parcels I was studying a vk.com official community for computeruniverse.ru clients, which is full of horror stories and detailed official 20-step instructions on how not to get screwed.

8 The same applies to letters, unfortunately. A local letter may travel for a month (even town hall officials complain about that).

9 A letter I sent from San Francisco arrived to Yekaterinburg in about three months. Just before I arrived myself.

10 YMMV. Russia is a great country. Cheers.

1 You started that. They started not long time ago, you can see an onset of jokes about Russian Post Service on the popular jokes site bash.im (former bash.org.ru). This onset started about two or three years ago.

2 Me and my friends and relatives had not have problems at the same time.

7 I can cite you horror stories about everything. 20 steps to eat potato and not get screwed. I think you also heard about selection bias, do you?

10 I think you had to start with YMMV instead of ending with it. Because, you know, for every anecdote you tell I have another anecdote to tell you.

To be fair, he posted his experience. Discussion starts when someone questions what somebody said.

Blaming memes is just lame. No good viral meme starts without a reason. Poor memes without any real reason dies way before getting popular.

What's the difference if someone is starting or ending with YMMV? It looks like nitpicking for the sake of writing bigger blob of text.

They buy stuff from Finland not because it's cheaper but because they can return VAT when they cross the border.

Yep. Shuttle buses with Belorussian plates and "shopping in Lithuania" slogans is common sight there.

Fun fact, Vilnius' IKEA is built next to a highway that goes to Belorussian border. Every 5th or so plate in the parking lot is BY.

You should ask not only your friends and relatives, but all people all around, forming the proper representation. For example, you haven't asked farmers about changes that came to them. Or industrial workers. I almost certain about that.

This is getting dangerously close to "no true scotsman".

I believe that yours gets dangerously close to Godwin's.

I had in mind that relying only to "statistics" from close friends and relatives skews one's view SO MUCH that one should not even apply that argument in almost any discussion.

You either try to get the whole picture of life or live in the sweet bubble.

The bubble had its own good properties - less mind energy expended, you can focus on what entertains you most. But that about all. To plan your journey through life you have to have the complete picture, or, at least, try to acquire it.

Please elaborate your Godwin accusation, and explain, in what way you believe that I lack a complete picture. I am fully aware, FYI, that there exists a 30-50% Russian minority in Ukraine (with exact percentage depending on whether you count by ethnicity or by native language).

In addition, please explain how it is that the "friends and family" whose opinions you so adamantly declare are irrelevant are also living in bubbles. Are millions of people living in bubbles? Thousands? Dozens? Just me? How many exactly? I would like to hear your answer.

Or is it, perhaps, only people you don't agree with who live in "bubbles"?

And that is why so many of you go abroad to work?

If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open.

To be fair, there's still a huge gap between post-ussr and western countries. But we're catching up. It takes time to fix what 50 years in ussr did. Some people want money & stuff fast, they go abroad. Other people prefer to work on rebuilding their country and/or see more business opportunities in developing market.

By the way, it's not only ex-ussrs emigrating. I heard more and more Spaniards and Greeks come to Norway to earn more :)

> If people are not allowed to go abroad at all for 50+ years, they'll naturally flock in bigger numbers once borders are open.

Or there aren't any real jobs left because EU destroyed real production left from USSR.

USSR times factories were ineffective as hell. They went under simply because they couldn't stay afloat. Outdated technologies, R&D focused on specific parts of weapons, ineffective management, shitty environmental policies... USSR times factories were a complete disaster. All of that closed years before EU. And thanks god they closed. Now I can swim in a lake next to my hometown without worrying about allergies. You know how we could tell what colour carpets the factory is making that day? By looking at a lake next to it :)

Tssk, tssk.

Oh man. I cannot see how what you are saying makes sense.

First, joining the EU and trading with the EU are different things. We are talking about a very low level of commitment here for what originally started these riots. Please tell us how reducing corruption and creating a trade agreement with the EU a bad thing for Ukraine?

Second, what does burning tires have to do with anything about this political situation? What would you do if you living in Kiev right now? Reading more of these comments I am starting to think that most people who express this disdain are really just trolling for Russia.

About your first point - I don't know.

I have something to say about your second point, though. Protesters are dumb ruining the city by burning the tires, regardless of the political situation. I am not living in Kiev, I planned a visit to it soon, I don't anymore. I don't know what to do. I am just saying that burning tires and cars is bad and stupid. Protesters have earned disdain at least from me by doing that.

The are not just trolling for Russia. LJ is really popular online platform for Putin's prpaganda, and a lot of people are getting paid for pro-Putin politic comments. Usually after third page the amount of such comments falls down considerably, probably they are being paid for with a lower rate.

I think you overestimate the power of Putin.

I think that keeping the protest going is stupid thing in itself. Many think the same and this is what is going on.

> They want Ukraine to join European union

No. If you were more familiar with the situation, you would understand that EU is only being used as a token signal (not goal) of the direction the country should be heading in. What the protesters really want is for the current government to resign and not to sign a (undoubtedly corrupt) deal with Russia that would effectively infringe on Ukraine's economic and political sovereignty.

The problem of course is that Ukraine has no economic sovereignty already.

It is utterly dependent on Russian gas for its energy needs. Even if Yanukovich steps down, next leader will have the exact same problem - where to get gas to power the country and you can bet your last grivna that the price of gas will go ballistic if Ukraine is to do something, anything to jeopardize the security of Russian borders. For example, align themselves with the EU. They are in a check-mate :-|

To add to this, they're also dependant on Russia for trade. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/balance-of-trade

The vast majority of trade Ukraine does is with Russia, so souring that relationship will spell economic doom for Ukraine. Unless the EU is willing to purchase more products from Ukraine than Russia while at the same time providing them with loans and cheap gas I don't see how a trade agreement with the EU is a good thing.

It's not like Yushchenko was able to get anything beneficial from the EU, why does anyone think Yatsenyuk, Klitschko or Tyahnybok will do any better (assuming any of them could even get elected splitting the vote in the west)?

Note that I said "economic and political". At present, Ukraine is mostly politically sovereign. The deal with Russia would make it much worse, especially on political front.

Do you want to assert that Bulgaria, Slovakia would be better in Russian sphere of influence?

Do you suggest that benzopirenes are more harmful than a lot of tear gas being used against protesters?

Kiev is living its own life, re-read the Zyalt's post if you haven't read this yet.

Protesters are stupid? Ok, is it better to stay quiet when you have your president becoming a dictator? When police is more like bandits and courts are lawless? When peaceful protests are almost outlawed just because it annoys the dictator and its clique?

> Ok, is it better to stay quiet when you have your president becoming a dictator? When police is more like bandits and courts are lawless? When peaceful protests are almost outlawed just because it annoys the dictator and its clique?

Reminds me of one country that tends to drone strike everything that they can't spy on.

The difference is that Yanukovych is the president of _my_ country.

I didn't mean to poke at your country, but at the other one.

And he meant to say that the other country looks like heaven from his perspective.

People you call poor and downtrodden are pretty well of by Eastern European standards.

You should get your news about the U.S. from somewhere other than hn, /r/politics or RT.

They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case

I am as euroskeptic as the next man, but the EU is 100x better for everyone than the USSR was.

Please elaborate on this: "conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics". I am from a former Baltic USSR republic and I have no idea how you came up with your, as you might say, stupid conclusion. It is just plain not true.

thesz is from Moscow, it's how it looks from there.

It should look to you too. Try to investigate.

Look no further than to Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/12/26/bulgaria...

The power of propaganda, you say?

Wonders of propaganda.

So you're saying let's not protest because of the smoke?

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