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Yes for us, stuff like this doesn't matter since it's all about ability.

So why does she matter? Because regardless of the reality, programming is still seen by the masses as a well paid janitorial function that only uncool, socially inept, nerdy males should do. (Notice that I didn't say could but should.) This is why a lot of people have a "I'm too good to stoop down and do this" attitude, when it comes to things like programming. "That guy should do it instead of me." Programming or most technical occupations just don't command the same level of respect in the West like a finance, legal, or medical job does regardless of the pay.

People like Scott give programming a cool and acceptable image for non-techies and people still deciding what they want to be in the future. imo, the main reason females aren't into stuff like programming is because of its negative social perception. LAST EDIT: When I think about it, I'm surprised I haven't read anything addressing this problem when it comes to attracting more females to tech.

> So why does she matter? Because regardless of the reality, programming is still seen by the masses as a well paid janitorial function that only uncool, socially inept, nerdy males should do. (Notice that I didn't say could but should.) This is why a lot of people have a "I'm too good to stoop down and do this" attitude, when it comes to things like programming. "That guy should do it instead of me." Programming or most technical occupations just don't command the same level of respect in the West like a finance, legal, or medical job does regardless of the pay.

And the reality is that a lot of programming jobs are well paid janitorial functions. There is a lot of self delusion happening in the American programming industry that one needs to be a certain level of smartness (Observe posts on how all genius programmers have been programming since their youth). It really doesn't. There is nothing inherently complicated about most pieces of software related work. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean that there is not a lot of hard work in doing this efficiently. It is just that American programmers are loud and opinionated on how it takes years and years to become a good programmer. In India and China, people don't spend time thinking about the level of intellect required to write code, they just do it. In fact, dozens and dozens of them, of both genders. Now, there is a lot of that code that is bad. Yet, that is merely the normal distribution working at scale.

People need to think of programming as another job. Just because you were a snowflake and were oppressed in your high school doesn't mean that whatever you do in life is touched with some special magic that makes it inherently removed by people of other sub-cultures.

Going on a tangent, I disagree. While a lot of programmers in the West care about how smart someone is, we care more about how disciplined they are and whether or not they like what they're doing (more on this below).

> Now, there is a lot of that code that is bad. Yet, that is merely the normal distribution working at scale.

No. I feel that the majority of bad code that comes from those places is more due to culture than anything else. There's a mentality of "let's just get this done the fastest way possible without thinking about maintenance or the future." They don't really care about their work; they only care about the money it brings. There's no love for programming. It's just clock in and clock out. Regardless of how smart someone is, this type of thinking doesn't lead to quality code. (to be fair ppl like this exist here as well, just not as widespread or in the same proportion) Then there's the diploma mills that churn out graduates with no skills or preparation for a programming job... but that's another story. EDIT: It also doesn't help that the best and brightest in both places tend to leave for the West.

> People need to think of programming as another job.

This is the kind of thinking that leads to shitty work. It's hard for people to excel or churn out quality products when they're doing something for a paycheck that they don't really like doing.

I completely disagree with both assertions.

1. On the idea that somehow technical debt is culturally ingrained in certain societies.

Silicon Valley is filled with countless programmers who continually drum the ship the shit out philosophy. If you haven't worked there, a rough sample of this forum's blog posts by clueless founders should indicate that.

I have worked in enough American run American programmer driven companies to know that technical debt is not an abstraction. It is a reality that is reflected by programmer pressures.

So it is not culture specific unless the culture you are talking about is programmer culture.

2. On the idea that western programmers care more about discipline rather than smarts.

Programming interviews as evidenced by personal experience and the realms of rants written online are a perfect reflector of the fallacy of that assertion. How the fuck is writing depth first search or some other bullshit graph search algorithm in 2 minutes any sign that you are a good programmer to design an iOS app?

> 1. On the idea that somehow technical debt is culturally ingrained in certain societies.

It is. I can speak confidently about it (at least for China) since my family is from there, I was born in the region, and I worked in East Asia for period of time. I know the culture(s). Whether or not they are right or wrong, my Indian friends and colleagues have confirmed the same problem in their country of origin.

Culture does matter in general and it affects things like technical debt. It's the reason why the US favors lawyers and bankers over engineers and programmers (and why Asia will most likely eclipse us in the long run), and the same reason that places like Japan have a dearth of entrepreneurs due to their fear of failure and aversion to risk.

On a whole, people in mainland China just don't give a shit about anyone outside of their family (and maybe maybe their friends and even this is a stretch since it's a low trust society). All they really care about is maximizing their economic gains and increasing their social status. The cost (i.e. who you screw over) doesn't matter as long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone in their extended blood related family. Quality and a lot of other things suffer from this pervasive way of thinking.

> 2. On the idea that western programmers care more about discipline rather than smarts.

Maybe hot startups focus solely on smarts, but larger, older, and less hip companies tend to care more about experience and just competence (i.e. can you understand the work and get things done that doesn't end up being spaghetti?) instead of how brilliant you are.

I think articles like this help to "normalize" programming as a career for people that aren't nerdy white dudes. The hypothesis goes, a lot of [women,minorities] don't go into [programming,finance,etc] because they don't see it as a career that people like themselves can or do choose. Puff pieces about "this person who is like you or who you aspire to be like is also into [programming,finance,etc]" help them visualize themselves choosing this career.

You may not agree, but I think having more women and minorities in programming would be a good thing. Because I think that articles like this are a way to help get young women and minorities interested in programming, I like that this article exists, even though it wasn't written for me.

While it might help "normalize" a programming career, it also reinforces the idea that no matter what a woman has accomplished (or is capable of) in her career, her physical appearance is at least as important when evaluating her accomplishments.

Full disclosure: I am a woman. I am also a student and CS major. I happen to be conventionally attractive, and rather than inspiring me, this kind of article contributes to certain fears I have, going into the industry. If we want to inspire young girls to be interested in programming, we should highlight the work of people like Marissa Meyer, who have worked really hard over many years...not give them the impression that being born tall and beautiful is as important as their resumes.

> If we want to inspire young girls to be interested in programming, we should highlight the work of people like Marissa Meyer, who have worked really hard over many years...not give them the impression that being born tall and beautiful is as important as their resumes.

It is funny you say that because guess what showed up on my Linkedin news feed the other day. [1]

[1] http://qz.com/166317/why-it-makes-sense-to-pay-beautiful-ceo...

I am aware that Marissa Meyer's looks are often spoken of. However, before she was a CEO, she earned degrees from some of the world's most highly ranked universities and did interesting work for another 13 years.

Regarding the article you posted - the advantage that attractive people have in the workplace is not limited to women; attractive men also earn this benefit. In fact, some studies show that if attractive women are applying for typically male-dominated fields, they are rated more negatively than their unattractive counterparts. Attractive males do not experience a noted disadvantage when applying for any job.

Further info on this phenomenon: http://www.hofstra.edu/pdf/orsp_shahani-denning_spring03.pdf

You may have same objections toward articles that would mention how much money a man makes, what an excelent breadwinner he is, how breave or strong he is. It would reinforce the idea that no matter how accomplished man is in his career what matters is how much money he makes or how manly he is.

I don't think that looks of Marrisa Mayer were not a factor in how much her story was covered.

That's a good point that I hadn't considered, thanks for the POV-check.

> You may not agree, but I think having more women and minorities in programming would be a good thing.

When you say minorities, who exactly do you mean? Silicon Valley has more non white immigrants writing code than 'young white dudes'.

Ah! Yeah, my bad. My Midwest assumptions are showing through. I'll try to be more aware.

When I think minorities, I think African American and Hispanic. I grew up in Nigeria and I'm lucky that my parents decided to move to America where I picked up on programming. If there were more notable blacks in SV, I would have decided on programming sooner.

Non white immigrants to me are not minorities but I could be and I probably am wrong.

> Non white immigrants to me are not minorities but I could be and I probably am wrong.

If you are going by the socio-cultural definition of a person who has not had the chances that the cultures in the U.S. have been given. There are enough minorities, American Indian, Hmong and so on to name a few.

If you are going by the definition of a person who ethnically belongs to a population who is not the majority, then there are Asians who have done well for themselves in the programming industry but still are minorities.

Oh also, sometimes there won't be people ahead to make the path for you. You have to get out there and make it yourself. I grew up in Ethiopia, touched a computer for the first time at the age of 16 (for thirty minutes because we paid by the minute). Not everyone has the magical opportunities that exist in America.

Your comment reeks of elitism (though much of the ones in this article do as well). I'm pretty sure that this article wasn't written with HN mind as the audience. Your reaction seemed a bit strong to me.

Can you tell me what you find to be a reputable news source? I'm not saying CNN is the best news source but they have to at least be in the top ten of news networks in the U.S. Maybe even in the top five?

And if you haven't noticed the general public does like "human interest" news. IMHO this is a step up from the local news in LA. It is at least positive rather than the overwhelmingly negative news that I seem to come across.

Anything that possibly encourages more young people (women) to get into programming should be encouraged (again IMHO).

TLDR...don't hate.

On one hand you are kind of right that when you care about software or creations in general it does't matter if it was created by a supermodelor a dog. But the article is about real world. And in real world your creation has different value depending on whether you are Jackson Pollock or Johnny, age 5.

She as a black female supermodel can have much more impact on the world with her coding that overweight white guy that does exactly the same.

Because to encourage women to become programmers would require them to understand it's not just for the overweight 30-something males.

But yes, the article wasn't great, CNN as you say.

I agree with you. Although I guess there are arguments to be made about covering this to show potential role models from different backgrounds, it still isn't anything particularly noteworthy.

I also have very mixed feelings about the term "geek" being used. It seems to be thrown around for everything nowadays, from people who watch Doctor Who to people who are actually deeply invested in STEM. It's a good and admirable skill to have these days, being able to throw an iOS app, but the term has really lost its weight.

For those curious about "no one knows you're a dog" it's from a Peter Steiner cartoon that ran 20 years ago:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/comic-riffs/post/nobody-...

so mr. egalitarian, I'm so blind-I-only-see-ability.

You're telling me, with no question, if you were to see this woman in the middle of the street, you would think she could absolutely be a coder?

You're telling me if you saw her at a conference, you would think she was there as an expert, and not to find a husband, or was part of the booth babes or help staff?

You're telling me if you saw her on the roster to speak at a conference, you'd think she got it because of her prowess and intellect, and not because she dolled up?

I can't speak for "Mr Egalitarian", as you put it, but I can confidently say yes to all of those things (or more precisely, I wouldn't assume any of those things any less or more than if I saw an Asian man). Knowing the probability of a tech person being a certain race or gender doesn't mean one is forced to apply that knowledge, particularly when one is aware of the human cost of that kind of stereotyping/pidgeonholing. It sounds like you're just projecting a lot of racial and/or gender issues that you have onto the author of the parent comment.

lol, okay. whatever u say, bro.

I'm glad we're in agreement. It's all too rare to find people who are so easily convinced even when they're very wrong; kudos.

Hooray for you, Mr. Colorblind, that you don't care about her looks, race, or gender. Unfortunately, women and black people (in the US at least) don't get to breezily dismiss it. The fact that you are apparently unaware of this leads me to think that you are exactly the kind of person who could do with a privilege audit.

Caring about people's racial characteristics is racist.

Not caring about people's racial characteristics is "colorblindness" and also racist.

That really is a catch-22 scenario.

You have funny definitions. As far as a hiring manager goes, sure, he should care about the persons ability. But this wasn't an interview -- he was commenting on an article about someone living in the real world.

In the US, there are still significant racial and gender issues. Ignoring them because you are "color blind" is not a commendable trait. It isn't racist; it is ignoring racism.

She's not any old model, she's a "supermodel" (gasp!) so of course everything she does is special and newsworthy...

...he said on _hacker_ news.

I think term supermodel has some meaning. Model is like mom & pap shop or lifestyle business. Supermodel is like Bezos or Zukerberg.

So far she is a supermodel who codes, not a ninja coder that models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermodel