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Comment by liam_boogar | Hacker News Reader

I can't speak to the other posts, but as the author of this post, the intrigue for me is that the common thread, their country of Origin, makes a big statement about France's ability to educate and product entrepreneurs.

There is also a subtle undertone (I chose not to dive into it in the article, as it's been discussed in depth elsewhere) about the fact that many of France's most successful citizens found their success outside of France, suggesting that, while the French system produces a consistent flow of intelligent entrepreneurs (a keystone of a healthy startup ecosystem), it fails to create an environment in which those entrepreneurs feel they can succeed.

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Let's dig (Granted: It's a kind of Godwin point for a French entrepreneur post):

- 71% tax above 31k€ per year: VAT 20%, Revenue tax 15%, Taxe Pro/Education 1%, [health, retirement, elderly, unemployment and similar] social mandatory fees 46%, mandatory fees and tax agent 2200€, the total is around 71%.

- Research incentives "CIR" can pay up to 90% of your PhD employees,

- ACCRE, women incentives and some I'm-a-victim incentives can get you 10-80k€ loans that you don't have to reimburse in case of failure.

It looks to me like we're selecting our best start-ups on how well they do at smuggling benefits.

It also looks like we weigh on those who could grow. Make your calculation: Without 71% of tax, how many people do our competitors hire?

Last thing, there is a heavy hate for "those who make money" in France. I'm constantly at fear of talking about money and being bashed on the spot. Not like I try to improve on that anyway, I've seen how rich is the rest of the world and I think we should have a little talk here. Also, we don't incentive successful ones to come back. The retirement and health systems welcome you like someone who is intensely rich, which, in France, isn't good. And intensely rich starts at the programmer wage.

We like to say "Fuite des cerveaux" when talking about our engineers going to [insert any place in the rest of the world]. But we're getting into the range of "Fuite des mains": Two blue collar of my friends have left to Canada. We need to have a little talk in France about money.

That said... I came back from Australia to France to start my company. The competent doctors was a big one for me, as well as a cheaper cost of living.

NB: Thanks heaps to Liam for doing this little research. Looking forward to the list of local startups, e.g. Xavier Niel.

Come on, stop the French whining, and then maybe the French bashing will stop.

I wont even comment the 71%, because any educated reader will understand that theses taxes do not add up like that.

And even if it was true, a French engineer is still way cheaper than a SF one, especially once you want to provide health care and 401k. Added that since they whine all the time, French startups pay almost no taxes the first years.

The only reason why France do not have an important startup scene, is because French entrepreneur and investors are afraid of risk, and prefer to fund their companies with government subsidies.

Byroot, it's gross to reject an argument like that. Look:

> I wont even comment the 71%, because any educated reader will understand that theses taxes do not add up like that.

Emh, have you... done the calculation? Because I did. And I've found 71% for a scenario of 70k€.

It's insulting to assume I've just been adding up percentages. And when I find 71%, it's enough to back my statement that we're plainly choking our companies.

> The only reason (...) is because French entrepreneurs and investors are afraid of risk

Requires citation, it's just an unbacked statement. You have to prove it's the genes and not the administrative burden that weighs on us. I say it's the administrative burden.

> I've found 71% for a scenario of 70k€.

It's not even clear what you are talking about. Anyway what I meant is that you are adding, VAT, income taxes and employment taxes, It makes no sense because they all have a different "Assiette fiscale" (sorry no idea of the translation, it mean that their cost are based on different amounts i.e. benefit vs revenue vs salaries).

> Requires citation

Xavier Niel: "France is a tax heaven" [0]

Plus my own experience of parisian entrepreneurs / startups. Most of them are ramen profitable from the start just because of the R&D grants and other subsidies.

[0] http://www.latribune.fr/technos-medias/20131011trib000790084...

I need to work on a small infography to explain the figure with details. It would bring a better fact sheet to discuss about it.

Good job on citing Xavier Niel. The tax+subsidies system still alters the profile of start-up that survives.

At the risk of grossly generalizing, it's interesting to contrast the French and Silicon Valley cultures -- the pursuit of wealth versus benefit to society. SV invented the hipster capitalist, he wants to get rich but pretends to really want to change the world. OTOH the French are proud of their social institutions like education and health, but hate paying for it all.

Canada seems to be on a middle ground (ignoring the present administration). We complain about taxes too, but even the most conservative like our universal healthcare. It's a trade-off.

Unfortunately as a society (Canada) we're a little too conservative when it comes to entrepreneurship. Where I live anyway, the only path to 'success' that anyone can envision is working for a large corporation...

Tax wise BC Canada and California are about equal. BC has about %3 more sales tax, and consumer goods are more expensive for a combination of reasons. But on the other hand companies don't pay much in healthcare costs either.

The far more competitive and close by Seattle although draws in a lot of talent with no state income tax and being cheaper than California yet still close to home.

Right. And for me that is positive, because creating the economical environment is easier than improving greatly the education and fostering creativity and self thinking. Basically France needs to reduce taxes on employment, and provide for better ways for investment to happen. That seems doable.

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