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Comment by Karunamon | Hacker News Reader

Am I the only one that doesn't get chills up their spine whenever Google breaks into some new market? I see very little possible misuse of temperature preference (of all things...) and very great possible gains.

The more intimately a service knows you, the more personalized and relevant data it can bring.

And another thing, I am really sick and tired of tempering or being told to temper my enthusiasm for some new technology or some novel use of existing technology just because it might be misused. Just about every technology that's wide-reaching enough has abuse potential. That is not an excuse for ludditism! Deal with the abuse instead of hamstringing the tech.

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What about the ability to know when someone is in your home and when someone is not?

If Google records that data (say, to be able to provide you with a handy chart of your energy use and some ways to improve it), the potential I am more worried about is the fact that the data exists makes it possible to subpoena.

I'm not really worried about subpoena of my data- if the courts want it, they will get it. I'd be more concerned about what private companies are going to do with it. I know the gov't is the big bogeyman in most people's minds, but sometimes I swear private corps. have even less accountability than the gov't.

This all breaks down to one thing. The government can detain you indefinitely and is equipped to kill you. No private enterprise can do either of these things legally.

The government holds deadly force. Private enterprise is going to do some horrifying things with your data, but barring a cyperpunk dystopia, it lacks the capability to end your life.

What exactly are you wishing for here? That the government be prevented from accessing information on you under all circumstances? To my knowledge, a subpoena is usually pretty reasonable circumstances, and it was subpoenas specifically that we were discussing. If you feel otherwise, I would like to hear more.

Subpoenas are irrelevant when they are siphoning all the data they can get their hands on through programs like PRISM enabled by Patriot act.

And yes, while it doesn't matter what they can and cannot do with your data now (unless you're a criminal not much, obviously), if the government ever becomes excessively authoritarian and dictatorial, keep in mind they can retroactively go through all the data they ever gathered on you and find something to string you up with.

Wait until the day that Google announces that they're opening up their entire database of search histories in the name of transparency. It will be an opt-out initiative where those wishing to keep their data out of the open will have to pay a monthly "processing and maintenance fee" to "manually" remove your entries from the database.

The parent's point was that courts can only get data that are in Google's possession. Every time you give sensitive data to a third party, you make it easy for the government to get their hands on it.

Nest already recorded temperature changes so they could give you a handy chart. So it was already subpoenaable?

Exactly. I don't care if the government knows when I'm home (they can already figure that out), but imagine if Google's database of Nest info got leaked.

Burglars could look at the database and say "Oh hey, look, no one's home right now."

Do you really think burglars could not get their hands on leaked government agency database?

This is just another excuse to throw feces at Google, and HN commenters just don't miss any possible opportunity to do that.

strawman and goalposts. PP said google's database, not government databases.

google data breach in last 30 days: http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/04/technology/security/password...

inside job at home security company in last year: http://www.wbng.com/news/state/198129651.html

Calling that a Google data breach is a pretty big misrepresentation; keyloggers installed on user machines collected passwords typed into a number of websites, including Google's.

(disclaimer: I work for Google, have no special knowledge of the incident in question)

Then the absolute safest thing to do is never give any information to any third party for any reason.

Except that's impossible to actually implement, or manage, and makes your life so much harder for questionable benefit.

This acquisition makes me a little bit nervous, but I have to point out that the database can be stolen or leaked no matter who is responsible for it.

I guess that the threat of being abducted by aliens is higher than burglars successfully hacking Google to get information on when you are not at home.

Databases get leaked publicly all the time. Look at the recent instagram leak.

>imagine if Google's database of Nest info got leaked.

Don't see how the acquisition changed the value of that data. Do you really think Nest has better data security than Google?

The "bad guys" (I assume we're talking about government types) can park outside your house or just lean on the electric/gas company for that info already. Or considering how some people broadcast their location with Twitter/Foursquare/Facebook/Etc, just watch that.

Parking outside your house requires that they have enough interest in you to dedicate resources to the task. The electric/gas meter in your house is not literally designed to detect when there is a human home and when there is not.

Nest really isn't great for that either, aside from what I'd call an adaptive timer based on how you adjust it.

But if you have access to someone's live power usage, you probably have a good idea of their schedule. On top of that, your phone makes a much better tracker than your thermostat.

> Nest really isn't great for that either, aside from what I'd call an adaptive timer based on how you adjust it.

What about the auto-away feature?

Depends entirely on where it's located in your home. I've tried and sold a Nest because my home thermostat is upstairs, and the only thing upstairs are bedrooms. During the day, there's nothing to trip the sensor.

Your phone makes a much better tracker for such things.

What did you replace it with? The nice thing about connected devices is that, well, they're connected. My Nest is also not somewhere I typically walk by during the day. That's alright, I have a $10 motion sensor in another room I do use, and in 5 minutes set up a rule on my home automation hub that sets my Nest to "home" when that sensor is tripped. That's only possible since Nest is internet-connected and has an API.

Nothing equivalent. I just replaced it with the standard programmable timer thermostat that was there before I got the Nest. It was partly the fact that the presence detection wasn't working for me, and partly the fact that I had a sudden cash flow problem and was still within the return window :)

I haven't invested the time into setting up a proper home automation rig yet, but it is on my to-do list.

This is already incredibly easy with Android in the fold. They know your WiFi passwords. Of course they know when you're home.

Android tracks your location for Google Now too. Actually they handily name your home location "home", and let you set it if they get it wrong. I've heard Apple do something similar now as well, so we can probably assume the average person's location history is easily subpoenable through Google or Apple.

Google already knows your location. Readings from your home electronics only enrich this data and make it more reliable.

The Nest contains some sensors (not 100% sure what type, a microphone and some type of motion sensor would be my guess though) used to determine whether you're home or not for their auto-away feature, so they get a little more than just your temperature preferences.

If I remember correctly the device senses when you walk near it.

> I see very little possible misuse of temperature preference (of all things...) and very great possible gains.

That's where the problem lies: the greatest gains should come from features/sensors/products not yet introduced. Of course temperature preference is a very weak data point for privacy, but I can think of a few invasive things a future device could have. I don't know if that's actually possible with a device in that price point, but if a thermostat could know who is in a room, there's a lot of good/evil that could be done with that data.

It would make it really easy for the DEA to figure out who the home pot growers are. Yeah you can look at utility bills in isolation but that generates a lot of false positives: people might just like to keep their house cold or warm (depending on the climate).

But once you correlate house size (via the property appraiser's website, public records) with house temperate (which the NSA gets from Google and supplies to the DEA) and electricity usage (utility companies roll right over for these requests) it'll be much easier to put together a pool of target-rich "suspects" who need to be "investigated" to generate probable cause.

Just one of the ways the data rich future just might subjugate us all!

...although many high-volume operations that are based inside of residential properties tend to use illegal/'off the grid' (so to speak) electrical connections...

Or you can install a bunch of solar panels and use them to power LEDs without ever connecting them up to the house's on-grid wiring system. That negates the need to permit it all and making that power usage completely invisible.

At least until someone starts correlating satellite photos with solar permits. Then you're back on the radar, and maybe higher up since only people with something to hide have off-grid solar!

Temperature preference is surely less interesting to them than when you are home (i.e. actively cooling/warming the house)

> I see very little possible misuse of temperature preference

Imagine that the season is changing where you live. You could be expected to start shopping for warm clothes. Google can easily show you ads for pricier warm clothes, and move organic results to page 2. Or Google knows you boiler broke down. And shows ads of pricier service companies instead of the lower-priced local fixer who is now on page 4. The immediate harm is that pricier alternatives are pushed to you, and you don't even know that cheaper alternatives exist, because Google controls your entire world.

First, somehow I don't think Google is going to do this. This is a company that keeps a multimillion dollar liability on their front page (the "I'm feeling lucky" button) out of culture and deference to tradition.

Secondly, what you suggest really isn't even misuse.

So.. if you tend to keep your house on the cool side, expect to see more banner ads for slippers, sweaters and housecoats.

After the whole PRISM/NSA/GCHQ scandal I think there were two roads to take: make your internet life as secure and private as possible (I tried this, it was boring and probably futile) or realise that keeping information private is only going to get more and more difficult. If you come to the latter realisation as I eventually did things like this might excite you. The more info Google has on me the more exciting and useful it's products will be. I'm particularly excited about the future of Google Now.

Instead of giving up altogether, I suggest a different approach: choose your enemies and compartmentalize your personal data.

Stuff related to your personal life and your feelings? You probably can't keep it from the NSA, but you can keep some of it from Google and Facebook. Super secret work stuff (think airplane parts, not stealth mobile app startups)? Cryptography and all kinds of misdirection to throw off spies.

When Google knows a lot about me, it knows what cuisines I like, so when I search for "restaurant" it can return search results for restaurants I might like... except I could have searched for "<cuisine> restaurant in <place>" and the results would be good enough.

Current returns are too marginal and my own judgement is often better; future hypothetical returns may be matched by improvements that don't require so many privacy invasions — specialized search engines, for instance.

>> "future hypothetical returns may be matched by improvements that don't require so many privacy invasions"

My approach is based on thinking ahead and of the future benefits I might get from Google knowing my private information (Glass, Google Now etc). I never thought that "future hypothetical returns may be matched by improvements that don't require so many privacy invasions". You've gave me something to think about!

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