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Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

There are tons of male nurses. 'iamelgringo, a former top contributor here, is an ER nurse.

Back of the envelope:

There are ~24,000,000 people aged 18-24 in the US. Assume half are female: there are ~12,000,000 "girls who might code" in the US. Of these, 12.6% are African American. There are ~1,440,00 "black girls who might code" in the US.

There are ~400,000 people who live in Tulsa.

There have probably been several "Tulsa Codes!" events in the past couple years, but either way just stipulate that it could happen. A "Tulsa Codes!" event addresses just 400,000 people. For logistical and practical reasons, that event locks out an overwhelmingly huge number of potential beneficiaries.

But nobody has a problem with "Tulsa Codes!". Threads aren't full of people ranting about "third wave feminism" when they do.

View on HN

9.6% of all RNs are male [0]

Why is there not a male nurse initiative? Or male elementary teacher initiative[1]?

I have to admit, I am strongly against things like "Girls who code". If there truly are issues in our culture that prevent girls from looking into coding, then absolutely let's get rid of those as best we can. But a girl can look into and explore coding just as easily as a boy can. There's really nothing stopping them. I have a few male nurse friends too. Nothing stopped them either, they simply found nursing interesting and pursued it. There might simply be fewer female coders because they tend to not be interested in this profession, same as male nurses.

[0] -- http://www.minoritynurse.com/minority-nursing-statistics [1] -- http://www.menteach.org/resources/data_about_men_teachers

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6530237

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. The question you ask is a good one, though you are jumping to some conclusions. I think it may very well be that there should be a "male nurse initiative", or at least that the lack of one doesn't somehow dictate the ethics and obligations of our field.

Possibly I am jumping to conclusions. I have nothing against females in tech. I strongly believe anyone should be able to pursue whatever they want.

My local hacker's space hosts coding dojos to teach children how to code. There is no special treatment given to girls in these. Everyone is welcome and encouraged. The dojo organizers are conscious of making sure there is a good representation of female teachers/mentors in the program. That is a different -- and more effective -- approach to this issue. The difference seems subtle, yet it's key.

I'm male and I knit. It's something my Mom taught me when I was young and it's stuck with me. Yet I hate when my gender is made such a big deal here. I'm not a male knitter, I'm just a knitter. I don't want to talk about my gender and how great it is I have pursued this hobby, I want to talk about the hobby. I can't help but think females would feel similar to programs like this.

That's 3x as many as there were 20 years ago. What does the trendline look like for software development? (I don't know; it's a serious question).

For graduates, as a percentage, it's down. That's all I've seen numbers for anyway.

Maybe we should be asking why so many boys are being pressured into hacking?

Why is there not a male nurse initiative?

Did you actually look?

http://www.gatewayct.edu/Programs-Courses/Divisions-Departme...

http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/man-enough-20-x-20-choo...

http://aamn.org/choosenursing.shtml

Likewise the male teachers of younger children.

You're correct. I did not look. And it does make sense that they would exist.

Yeah, maybe my original comment was wrong. Maybe my view on this is wrong. I will admit seeing the male nurse initiatives does give me a different perspective on this.

This comment sets a good example.

Best comment in this thread.

Maybe you're not old enough, but I am and I remember a huge stigma against men who wanted to become nurses because it was a job "for women" and what kind of man would want to do that kind of thing.

> huge stigma against men who wanted to become nurses because it was a job "for women" and what kind of man would want to do that kind of thing.

...and that's exactly the kind of label that women slaps on tech jobs. "What kind of woman would want to {drive race cars,work 60 hour weeks coding,debug java threads,maintain virtual server farms}"

And there you have it. It's clearly the oppressive white males' fault.

"and that's exactly the kind of label that women slaps on tech jobs"

what kind of world are you living in because it's not one I've visited.

Actually it is what I remember from most girls in high school (late nineties): they want to work "with people instead of machines". It's a stigma that existed then in girls' minds and presumably still does, at least where I live.

I'm all for more women in tech, even if only to make the workforce more diverse. I'm also all for more minorities in tech, sure. Where I live, working in a tech job means 95% of youf colleagues will be white, male, middle class thirty-year olds.

But I have a gut feeling that at least in my environment, it's the fault of young women's mindset, not of "the system".

That's not at all the same kind of thing. Here's some male nurses talking about their experiences: http://allnurses.com/nursing-career-advice/you-ashamed-being...

""" I'm not "ashamed" of being an RN but it's hard when you are a guy and around other people that are uninformed about nursing. I dont use the term "nurse" because many people associate that term with a variety of menial jobs. I tell them I'm an RN. Even that doesnt register with many people. Of course being a guy I'm always asked "when are you starting med school?" or I get a veiled smirk and they say something like "oh you're a male nurse.." as if I'm a pariah or something. """

It's clearly the oppressive white males' fault.

The general public have no idea what "debug java threads" or "maintain virtual server farms" means, and being a programmer isn't particularly associated with long work days. It's also quite a stretch to call driving a race car a 'tech job'.

I think you need to reconsider your perspective on the issue.

Looking at it in terms of "fault" is particularly unhelpful -- and irrelevant to what most organizations, including the one that is the subject of this thread, looking to break down cultural barriers are doing.

Why is there not a male nurse initiative? Or male elementary teacher initiative[1]?

There are! It's just not discussed on HN because this isn't a site focused on nursing and teaching, but copying from a prior post of mine, 45 seconds of Googling brought up http://www.malenursemagazine.com http://www.menteach.org/ and http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/recruiting-men-nursing-....

malenursemagazine.com seems to be a spam/product placement blog

menteach.org has a (C) of 2007, and a dead forum.

Some more up-to-date links:

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/mar/23/advocates-say...

http://aamn.org

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/media-relations/fact-sheets/enhanci...

> Why is there not a male nurse initiative?

There are male nurse initiatives, e.g., [1].

> Or male elementary teacher initiative?

There are those, too [2].

There's even specifically (ethnic) minority male teacher initiatives. [3]

The fact that you are ignorant of something and haven't even done a simple Google search to look into it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[1] http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/recruiting-men-nursing-...

[2] http://www.menteach.org/

[3] http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/09/shortage_of_minorit...

If by tons, you mean 9%, then yes, there are tons of male nurses. Many are nurse anesthetists, which isn't what most people think of when they think "nurse". (Anesthetists also earn an extra hundred grand a year, on average.)

http://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupat...

It is not helpful that "nursing" is an explicitly gendered term. And despite that, the fraction of nurses who are male is climbing steadily.

In what way is "nursing" explicitly gendered? Obviously one of its definitions necessarily refers specifically to women, e.g. "wet nurse," but that's the only one, and that's simply an issue of mammary glands. I was under the impression that the word comes from a contraction of the word "nourish" and doesn't have any explicit gender association.

"The first instance in English of nurse occurred in the early thirteenth century as the Anglo-Norman nurice, derived from the fifth-century post-Classical Latin nutrice, a wet-nurse."

What's the goal? A 50% gender ratio in all fields?

Just trying to understand the mindset of a SJW.

But Tulsa Codes would exist for logistical and practical reasons (it makes sense to organize people who already live in an area).

Girls Code is associated (fairly or not) with an ideological movement to correct for oppression and privilege that exists in our society. People who disagree with this movement will of course post about it when they see these articles.

Yes. Exactly my point. The problem people have with "Girls Code" is that accepting it requires them to accept that women have been at some point treated unfairly.

I personally have no issue with "Black Girls Code" or any other groups like that -- mostly because any work done to educate more people (of any gender, race, sexuality, whatever) about what we do is a positive.

Moreover its important that people who decide to contribute in this way (teachers, mentors, etc) feel like they are helping a group they care deeply about and/or can identify with.

Having said that I do wish we had more events targeting all kinds of youth with the goal of changing the mentality of future developers/engineers. If they learn in diverse groups (including some level of age diversity, preferably) I feel they'd have a better shot at creating a 'new normal' for the future.

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