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Comment by rokhayakebe | Hacker News Reader

I am a man.

These initiatives will simply not work. Imagine "Men Nurse."

Many women SIMPLY do not code for the same reason many men do not code. Most of us were not exposed to the science as kids, hence step 1 is to make Programming mandatory. Note I say programming and not C.S.. I am an amateur programmer and I can say wit confidence that this is as fundamental as basic arithmetic. Full stop.

I frankly wish they shut down "Girls Who Code" entirely and all the likes. Instead we can put our efforts into teaching everyone to code: "We Code." Because once someone does something as simple as print (2+2)-(3-2) or print $first_name + $last_name or (my favorite) <html><h1>The Website of Me</h1><p>My name is Joanna. This is my first web page.<img src='..'></p></html>, once they do this, there is simply no going back for them.

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There are tons of male nurses. 'iamelgringo, a former top contributor here, is an ER nurse.

Back of the envelope:

There are ~24,000,000 people aged 18-24 in the US. Assume half are female: there are ~12,000,000 "girls who might code" in the US. Of these, 12.6% are African American. There are ~1,440,00 "black girls who might code" in the US.

There are ~400,000 people who live in Tulsa.

There have probably been several "Tulsa Codes!" events in the past couple years, but either way just stipulate that it could happen. A "Tulsa Codes!" event addresses just 400,000 people. For logistical and practical reasons, that event locks out an overwhelmingly huge number of potential beneficiaries.

But nobody has a problem with "Tulsa Codes!". Threads aren't full of people ranting about "third wave feminism" when they do.

9.6% of all RNs are male [0]

Why is there not a male nurse initiative? Or male elementary teacher initiative[1]?

I have to admit, I am strongly against things like "Girls who code". If there truly are issues in our culture that prevent girls from looking into coding, then absolutely let's get rid of those as best we can. But a girl can look into and explore coding just as easily as a boy can. There's really nothing stopping them. I have a few male nurse friends too. Nothing stopped them either, they simply found nursing interesting and pursued it. There might simply be fewer female coders because they tend to not be interested in this profession, same as male nurses.

[0] -- http://www.minoritynurse.com/minority-nursing-statistics [1] -- http://www.menteach.org/resources/data_about_men_teachers

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6530237

I don't know why you're getting downvoted. The question you ask is a good one, though you are jumping to some conclusions. I think it may very well be that there should be a "male nurse initiative", or at least that the lack of one doesn't somehow dictate the ethics and obligations of our field.

Possibly I am jumping to conclusions. I have nothing against females in tech. I strongly believe anyone should be able to pursue whatever they want.

My local hacker's space hosts coding dojos to teach children how to code. There is no special treatment given to girls in these. Everyone is welcome and encouraged. The dojo organizers are conscious of making sure there is a good representation of female teachers/mentors in the program. That is a different -- and more effective -- approach to this issue. The difference seems subtle, yet it's key.

I'm male and I knit. It's something my Mom taught me when I was young and it's stuck with me. Yet I hate when my gender is made such a big deal here. I'm not a male knitter, I'm just a knitter. I don't want to talk about my gender and how great it is I have pursued this hobby, I want to talk about the hobby. I can't help but think females would feel similar to programs like this.

That's 3x as many as there were 20 years ago. What does the trendline look like for software development? (I don't know; it's a serious question).

For graduates, as a percentage, it's down. That's all I've seen numbers for anyway.

Maybe we should be asking why so many boys are being pressured into hacking?

Why is there not a male nurse initiative?

Did you actually look?

http://www.gatewayct.edu/Programs-Courses/Divisions-Departme...

http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/man-enough-20-x-20-choo...

http://aamn.org/choosenursing.shtml

Likewise the male teachers of younger children.

You're correct. I did not look. And it does make sense that they would exist.

Yeah, maybe my original comment was wrong. Maybe my view on this is wrong. I will admit seeing the male nurse initiatives does give me a different perspective on this.

This comment sets a good example.

Best comment in this thread.

Maybe you're not old enough, but I am and I remember a huge stigma against men who wanted to become nurses because it was a job "for women" and what kind of man would want to do that kind of thing.

> huge stigma against men who wanted to become nurses because it was a job "for women" and what kind of man would want to do that kind of thing.

...and that's exactly the kind of label that women slaps on tech jobs. "What kind of woman would want to {drive race cars,work 60 hour weeks coding,debug java threads,maintain virtual server farms}"

And there you have it. It's clearly the oppressive white males' fault.

"and that's exactly the kind of label that women slaps on tech jobs"

what kind of world are you living in because it's not one I've visited.

Actually it is what I remember from most girls in high school (late nineties): they want to work "with people instead of machines". It's a stigma that existed then in girls' minds and presumably still does, at least where I live.

I'm all for more women in tech, even if only to make the workforce more diverse. I'm also all for more minorities in tech, sure. Where I live, working in a tech job means 95% of youf colleagues will be white, male, middle class thirty-year olds.

But I have a gut feeling that at least in my environment, it's the fault of young women's mindset, not of "the system".

That's not at all the same kind of thing. Here's some male nurses talking about their experiences: http://allnurses.com/nursing-career-advice/you-ashamed-being...

""" I'm not "ashamed" of being an RN but it's hard when you are a guy and around other people that are uninformed about nursing. I dont use the term "nurse" because many people associate that term with a variety of menial jobs. I tell them I'm an RN. Even that doesnt register with many people. Of course being a guy I'm always asked "when are you starting med school?" or I get a veiled smirk and they say something like "oh you're a male nurse.." as if I'm a pariah or something. """

It's clearly the oppressive white males' fault.

The general public have no idea what "debug java threads" or "maintain virtual server farms" means, and being a programmer isn't particularly associated with long work days. It's also quite a stretch to call driving a race car a 'tech job'.

I think you need to reconsider your perspective on the issue.

Looking at it in terms of "fault" is particularly unhelpful -- and irrelevant to what most organizations, including the one that is the subject of this thread, looking to break down cultural barriers are doing.

Why is there not a male nurse initiative? Or male elementary teacher initiative[1]?

There are! It's just not discussed on HN because this isn't a site focused on nursing and teaching, but copying from a prior post of mine, 45 seconds of Googling brought up http://www.malenursemagazine.com http://www.menteach.org/ and http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/recruiting-men-nursing-....

malenursemagazine.com seems to be a spam/product placement blog

menteach.org has a (C) of 2007, and a dead forum.

Some more up-to-date links:

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/mar/23/advocates-say...

http://aamn.org

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/media-relations/fact-sheets/enhanci...

> Why is there not a male nurse initiative?

There are male nurse initiatives, e.g., [1].

> Or male elementary teacher initiative?

There are those, too [2].

There's even specifically (ethnic) minority male teacher initiatives. [3]

The fact that you are ignorant of something and haven't even done a simple Google search to look into it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[1] http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/recruiting-men-nursing-...

[2] http://www.menteach.org/

[3] http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/09/shortage_of_minorit...

If by tons, you mean 9%, then yes, there are tons of male nurses. Many are nurse anesthetists, which isn't what most people think of when they think "nurse". (Anesthetists also earn an extra hundred grand a year, on average.)

http://www.census.gov/people/io/files/Men_in_Nursing_Occupat...

It is not helpful that "nursing" is an explicitly gendered term. And despite that, the fraction of nurses who are male is climbing steadily.

In what way is "nursing" explicitly gendered? Obviously one of its definitions necessarily refers specifically to women, e.g. "wet nurse," but that's the only one, and that's simply an issue of mammary glands. I was under the impression that the word comes from a contraction of the word "nourish" and doesn't have any explicit gender association.

"The first instance in English of nurse occurred in the early thirteenth century as the Anglo-Norman nurice, derived from the fifth-century post-Classical Latin nutrice, a wet-nurse."

What's the goal? A 50% gender ratio in all fields?

Just trying to understand the mindset of a SJW.

But Tulsa Codes would exist for logistical and practical reasons (it makes sense to organize people who already live in an area).

Girls Code is associated (fairly or not) with an ideological movement to correct for oppression and privilege that exists in our society. People who disagree with this movement will of course post about it when they see these articles.

Yes. Exactly my point. The problem people have with "Girls Code" is that accepting it requires them to accept that women have been at some point treated unfairly.

I personally have no issue with "Black Girls Code" or any other groups like that -- mostly because any work done to educate more people (of any gender, race, sexuality, whatever) about what we do is a positive.

Moreover its important that people who decide to contribute in this way (teachers, mentors, etc) feel like they are helping a group they care deeply about and/or can identify with.

Having said that I do wish we had more events targeting all kinds of youth with the goal of changing the mentality of future developers/engineers. If they learn in diverse groups (including some level of age diversity, preferably) I feel they'd have a better shot at creating a 'new normal' for the future.

> Many women SIMPLY do not code for the same reason many men do not code.

Well, yes, I suppose this is true. If you pick a random woman who cannot code, that is probably the reason.

What about the women who have been driven out of coding simply because they happen to be female? It's something I have personally witnessed, both in the education system, and in commercial settings. There are real problems here, problems that you through your good fortune are not adversely affected by and in fact could go through your whole life without even knowing that they exist.

> Instead we can put our efforts into teaching everyone to code: "We Code."

If that's something you want to exist, then go make it - no one is stopping you, and the existence of "Girls Who Code" is in no way an impediment to your goals. I find it a little distasteful to ever say someone should give up on their personal project just because you think they should be doing it differently. Go do it then, if you're so sure you have the answers!

A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. This is not a social thing. This is not hard core research requiring millions to get started. Only a PC, Stack Overflow and an internet connection are required. Even now on HN I cannot tell who is a girl or guy by their username, let alone the gender of the person who wrote the code that populates the webpage I read.

> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself.

What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself, would do — say that it was all on them.

You may not even realize it, but your comment actually excuses all of the sexism and misogyny in the industry. It's putting the onus, and the blame, on the victim. That's awful.

You're conflating coding with the culture behind it. And even the culture isn't uniform, it's divided into many different subcultures.

For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC.

Even if you do use your real name and explicitly denote your sex as female, you'll still survive. You certainly aren't immune from trolling. No one is. But frankly most cases of "harassment and vitriol" I've read about (on the Geek Feminism Wiki, for instance) tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities.

This isn't victim blaming. It's being realistic.

> For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community.

Except the community, which is generally hostile towards women. Sure, someone can learn how to program on their own without ever interacting with the programming community, but that means shutting them off from a huge and helpful resource.

> A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym.

"It's fine as long as you never say you're a woman!" Yeah, that's indicative of a friendly culture.

>Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC.

Aside from all your open source work never being attributable to yourself, sure. It's totally smarter. I'm sure no one ever contributes to open source projects with the intent of getting their name out. And your little aside to "contemporary feminists" (ironically in the same comment where you complain about generalizing cultures) just reveals your true intention in this discussion.

> ...tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities.

Ah, here we go. The "you're just too sensitive" argument. As though not wanting to be hurt or harassed or bothered is a bad thing. As though the culture of trolling and adolescent behavior that permeates the programming community should remain the status quo, and anyone who calls for change just doesn't have thick enough skin.

You sure do bring some unique and insightful contributions.

The "you're just too sensitive" argument is a valid argument. I don't want to end up publicly shamed for jokes I make in private conversation.

The only way you're going to be shamed is if you really didn't make them in private conversation. Making them as you sit around a bunch of people in the middle of a conference, or in the middle of your office where everyone can hear you, or on your public twitter account is not a private conversation. Just because you directed it to someone does not make it private.

Have you heard of Kathy Sierra?

>What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say

Was that intended as a warning for the rest of your post?

>It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol

Of course it is. And since that does not happen any more frequently in tech than anywhere else, and does not happen any more frequently to women than to men, I have a hard time seeing the relevance.

>You may not even realize it, but your comment actually excuses all of the sexism and misogyny in the industry

You may not even realize it, but your comment actually makes women less likely to participate in tech. When people constantly make a huge fuss about imaginary misogyny, women start feeling like they are blamed by all the normal people, even though they had nothing to do with it and are actually normal people themselves.

> and does not happen any more frequently to women than to men

You might as well be stating the world isn't round, or the sky isn't blue, or any other plainly obvious fact that has been proven countless times. Of course, you'll say sexism in the industry really doesn't exist, and ignore the thousands of women detailing their experiences[1] on the subject, so this isn't really for you. This is for the random reader who might not be as pigheaded and oblivious.

> When people constantly make a huge fuss about imaginary misogyny

Did "imaginary" suddenly change meanings? Because either it did, or your head is so far in the sand, you've been ignoring some of the most[2] recent[3] incidents.[4] If you haven't been paying attention to the programming and tech community, you really shouldn't be speaking about it, you know? It just makes you look like a jackass, and you wouldn't want that, right?

[1]: http://www.chicagonow.com/wild-side-chicago/2013/09/sexism-i...

[2]: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/11/221052...

[3]: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/10/pax_dickinso...

[4]: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/3895-ignant-halloween-...

>Of course, you'll say sexism in the industry really doesn't exist

No, I say it is rare, no more common than in any other industry, and goes in both directions. But debating what I say rather than a strawman is too much effort right?

>you've been ignoring some of the most[2] recent[3] incidents.[4]

None of those are examples of misogyny. If you do not understand the meaning of the word, you can use a dictionary to find out.

>It just makes you look like a jackass, and you wouldn't want that, right?

I don't mind if a histrionic sjw with a victim complex thinks I am a jackass.

> disgustingly ignorant[....] sheer obliviousness[...] privilege[....] awful.

Do not expect shaming attempts to substitute for an argument here. Taking offense can't make you right.

There's the industry and then there's the calling. If they share my obsession, where is their mountain of hobby projects for getting it out of their system when their day jobs do not?

Ceol. I am Black. I am African. I live in Orange County (3% Black - At best). I am 32. I started to learn how to code at 28. I am still not comfortable walking in a room where everybody is White. I feel like a fraud sometimes, when I tell people I know how to code (in PHP).

None of the above stopped me from slinging that code for several hours today.

I understand what being a minority is, but quite frankly most of the time that shit is in our head. If you don't care, then no one will. Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage, this is not a zero sum game. I am writing code for a product for women (Hint: Alexander Wang, diane von furstenberg, Tory Burch, Marc Jacobs kinda stuff). Just because women knows these brands more than I (in general) does not mean I should sit back.

It's hard, I get it, but what other choice do we have but roll up our sleeves and make our own mark and tell them "You see, mine count too," instead of "Make it easy for me to get in."

But I'll admit, I am very naive, and that has cost me greatly.

At any rate, apologies.

Being black is certainly not the same as being a woman, and just because you didn't experience enough discrimination to push you away doesn't mean others don't. If anything, that feeling of being uncomfortable should make you more sympathetic, but instead, you're stuck in this bootstraps mentality that anyone who couldn't follow through just didn't apply themselves enough or something.

> Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage, this is not a zero sum game.

Err, yeah it does. That's exactly what it means. If someone has an advantage over you, you are at a disadvantage. That's what the word "disadvantage" means.

> Just because women knows these brands more than I (in general) does not mean I should sit back.

No one is saying you should. That actually has nothing to do with this. No one is asking for work to be segregated; in fact, they're asking for the exact opposite.

> "You see, mine count too," instead of "Make it easy for me to get in."

Why not both? Why not, "Stop treating me like shit and count mine." This isn't either-or.

You know, Ceol, maybe you are right.

> Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage

Since the kind of advantage/disadvantage we are talking is relative, not absolute, yes, it does.

> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. This is not a social thing.

Anxiety toward certain fields driven by experiences in formative years -- including experiences of other people's attitudes, which may include bias in perceived racial or gender abilities or roles -- is a real and often socially-induced thing, and the most well-known manifestation is math anxiety.

Its not really hard to see how this can relate to programming, particularly given the close relation between programming and math.

There are real problems here? What are these problems?

Did you even read the article or any of the comments in this thread?

Your intentions are good, but in practical terms, you are wrong.

The creation of things like "Girls Who Code" is not a statement that this is the way things should be but a statement that this is the way things have to be -- for now. Just about everyone will say -- and do so sincerely -- that they are totally for more females to get into programming, if those females want to be involved.

But the problem isn't the individual. It's the institution. The challenges that the most motivated women have faced when entering an ostensibly gender-agnostic situation have been well-documented and talked about...So creating an environment like "Girls Who Code" is a pro-active force, rather than just "let the pieces fall where they may" approach, because people who have tried that have failed.

To put it in a non-gendered context, saying that "women who code should just join the field and work their hardest" is like saying, "people who really need vacation time should join a company with 'no vacation policy'" and take a vacation whenever they want. After all, if the company says it has no policy against taking vacation, and everyone would like to take vacation when they feel like it...what's to stop people from taking the vacation days they need?

And yet, somehow, that doesn't happen, in practice.

> The creation of things like "Girls Who Code" is not a statement that this is the way things should be but a statement that this is the way things have to be -- for now.

And I think the response is a disagreement over the way things have to be for now.

I don't quite understand the structure of your argument.

First you claim it will not work because you cannot imagine "Men Nurse" would succeed. And then you claim that the reason why many women is because they were not exposed to programming as a child, a trait that is shared with many males.

This implies that the reason there is a short-fall in men in nursing is the similar to why there is a short-fall of women in programming. I don't believe this is the case, especially when you consider that your stated reason for the short-fall in women is that they are not exposed to programming as a child, implying the reason that men do not get into nursing is because they were exposed to less nursing like activities as a child. Which seems frankly kinda silly.

Furthermore, if we accept your premise that the reason that many women do not code is because of lack of childhood exposure, then clearly the massive skew in demographics right now implies that there is something about how we tend to do things that skew exposure towards boys. And if we're not careful about it, then if we just did a "We Code" we could very likely just include the same skewing towards boys, and we're right back to where we began.

I wanted to post something like this the last time something like this came up, but here we go. Rising tides raise all boats. But patching the leaky ones and installing a bilge pump will certainly help the floundering ones more. And right now people are deciding that there are some boats that are having trouble, and want to fix that first.

Why is this nursing thing coming up so often? There are many more women than you think in US graduate CS programs; however, many are not from the United States.

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