Hacker News Reader

Comment by kirillzubovsky | Hacker News Reader

Gotta love US and its inverse racism. "White girls code" would be persecuted like KKK is back in business, but "Black girls code" is all good. That's not right.

View on HN

Literally every other coding event is "white men code," so don't get so flustered when there's one single one that's not for you.

I expect better from Hacker News.

That's incorrect. Just because the audience is mostly white men does not mean that others aren't welcome or that they feel unwelcome. It just means that more white guys showed up that non-white guys.

Reply to child:

Now you're essentially calling white males racist, but the comments in this thread have nothing to do with how white men feel about other genders and races.

I have never been to an event wherein I've seen anything but positive vibes towards all people attending.

If you've read this thread top to bottom, you can surely see how nonwhite nonmen don't exactly feel welcome.

Cry me a river. It's nobody job to hold your hand and to make you feel welcome. If the default is "white guys hating on everyone else", that would indeed be bad for the environment. But, if the default is "I am here to code, and I really couldn't care why you're here," then it's nobody job but your own to make the environment into what you want it to be.

Response to child: No, by bringing more black girlfriends to a hackathon they would make an environment friendly. By creating a segregated event, they are pretty much saying they can't deal with mixed events, and have to kick everyone else out in order to create an enjoyable environment.

> it's nobody's job but your own to make the environment into what you want it to be.

Isn't that what they're doing by creating an environment for black girls?

But it offends white people by bringing up race. They really would just rather not talk about it.

Actually, a lot of them do feel unwelcome.

"I have never been to an event wherein I've seen anything but positive vibes towards all people attending."

You're a man, aren't you

Yes, and a white one at that, but I sit next to and chat with men and women of all races, and I watch the same occur in chairs/tables next to me. I've never seen anything that indicates white men are making others feel unwelcome.

Perception does not indicate reality. If you feel unwelcome and don't participate because of that, there's not much I can do to help you.

I'm a white male too and yes, you're right, "perception does not indicate reality."

Care to offer a counter example that you've personally witnessed?

you're not seeing the point here...

I am. You're saying that because we're white, we can't see it. I could make the same argument about God or elves or unicorns.

The fact is that just because someone feels unwelcome does not mean they are unwelcome. But that's neither a problem with the event nor the people in it.

No, we're saying that because you're socially oblivious and ignorant of historical and contemporary context you can't see it. Privilege is a contributing factor, but there are plenty of white men who are capable of seeing when they're being exclusionary.

This comment bleeds hatred and bigotry, and I'm sorry, but I'm not going to allow it to go unnoticed and unchecked.

Please name one behavior by the average 'privileged white man' that is inherently exclusionary. I bet you can't.

I'll answer your question: whiteness is exclusionary by definition.

You're not going to "allow" the comment to go "unnoticed and unchecked"? Please. What are you going to do? White-men-in-general are going to be talked about in a negative way. I welcome it. Hatred is warranted when it's hating the oppressors; it's called "punching up."

And it doesn't even matter if you scoff at that language, which is the great part, because people are quickly realizing that, for example, for all the celebrity surrounding the non-violent Nelson Mandela, he was ultimately a utilitarian when push came to shove...

That is a bloody lie! Every other even is perhaps "men code" because indeed there are not many women who come out, but still, some do. I don't know what events you go to, but I always see a good mix of guys of all races and colors.

Well looking at the industry overall, I'd be surprised if the conferences met national averages in terms of overall diversity. But why do that when we have a "good mix" according to the dominant group.

An event which is free for all is not a white men code event, even if most of the participans were white men.

You are demonstrating unfamiliarity with the difference between de jure and de facto. When people of other demographics feel uncomfortable being there because the audience is predominantly white and predominantly male, it is effectively exclusionary even if there isn't a single word to the contrary.

That doesn't make it your fault. It does mean it's something you have to make a real effort to understand and accept in light of the privilege you have.

>When people of other demographics feel uncomfortable being there because the audience is predominantly white and predominantly male, it is effectively exclusionary even if there isn't a single word to the contrary.

Do black people feel uncomfortable being with white people? That sounds racist and segregatory. We shouldn't turn all events into equal distributions, we should instead make people feel comfortable with being with all kinds of other people.

Many black people feel uncomfortable in environments dominated by white people because of the cultural and social domination by white people, both historically and in the current day. I don't understand why this is so difficult for you to understand.

An event at which the participants are mostly white men will cater to the wishes of white men.

I think that's because black people have historically been "unluckier" than white people in the US.

Do you feel the same way about the sexist component of this? Should I be annoyed that "Boys code" would be persecuted but "Girls code" is all good?

(I'm not saying there are any correct answers to my questions)

I think if some demographics are heavily underrepresented in a field, it makes some sense to target programs specifically to them.

This does happen with regards to men as well, if that's the worry—in areas where men are underrepresented. For example there is a professional association specifically to support men in nursing and recruit more men into the profession: http://aamn.org/

> I think that's because black people have historically been "unluckier" than white people in the US.

"Have historically been unluckier than", "are systematically objectified socially and repressed economically by"--I understand your typo, though, the keys are so close to each other on the keyboard.

(The tenses are important, too. It isn't new, but it isn't dead.)

Tell me about it. I was just trying to put it in blue pill white people language

I figured as much. =) It is something that I think is difficult to soft-pedal, though, and still encompass what it actually means.

I tend to think most of HN hasn't even the slightest idea, which makes me a bit sad.

I tend to give sexist language a pass because of how gendered English is (although not as gendered as many other languages). However, in this case "Kids code" seems like a viable option, so on thinking about it, the gendered nature of the title also annoys me, although my habbit of ignoring gendered language makes this a largely intellectual annoyance.

Also, the "black" in the title has the added problem of being superfluous feeling. "Code" does not convey what the group does. "Girls Code" conveys pretty well the this is a group of (female) children programmers. "Black Girls Code" conveys no additional information other than the fact that is is aimed at black girls specifically.

Also in general poor neighborhoods are fairly segregated by race, in the US, so just by picking specific cities you're accomplishing much of the racial discrimination. I don't think it's a big deal in this case, but in general poor people in Detroit are black; poor people in inland empire are white/hispanic.

How many black girls who code do you know?

There is a sufficient deficit such that there are almost no role models and this sort affirmative action makes sense.

Our president is black. Are you saying that he is therefor not a role model for any white men in the country? Are you saying Barack Obama could only be the role model for black people? That's insane, right? Much the same way it's insane to imply that a white/chinese/indian .... woman cannot be a role model for black girls.

1) There have been a few white male presidents before Barack Obama, in case you didn't know.

2) Many people voted for Obama at least in part because he was black, including myself, because they felt it was time to demonstrate we could and should elect a non-white-male president.

3) The president is a very special singular office, whereas there can be an almost unlimited number of coders. Affirmative action for the role of president or elected political office doesn't make a lot of sense (unless it's done by choice of the electorate.)

4) Indeed Barack Obama is a role model for black men. He showed that a black man (and a non-white-man) CAN be president, something hardly anyone thought was possible in our lifetime prior to his rise to prominence.

5) While a white man could be a role model for a black girl in some sense, people identify with those who share a cultural and racial heritage.

While on a certain theoretical level, what you say makes sense, it is not true in the actual world in which we exist.

"Looks like me" has a strong psychological impact, especially in environments where the "default" tends to be not-like-me.

And when other agents use appearance to form judgements about one another. Part of white/male privilege is having role models that look like you. It makes you feel and be treated as more of an "in-group" member. This shouldn't really be controversial, it's human nature. The response (Black Girls Code) is rational and I think it's sorely needed.

There are "girls code" events which are dominated by white females. There's no need to have one specifically for white females, except to exclude other races, There is a need for Black Girls Code as an effort to bring them into the fold. Once they are overrepresented as coders, I'd expect to see these events disappear.

Is this really so complicated for hackers to understand?

Nope. "White girls code" isn't being persecuted but "Black Girls Code" is here and now.

This isn't inverse racism, it is just racism.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com