Hacker News Reader

Comment by phaer | Hacker News Reader

Serious question: Why bother? Why is there such an interest in using a very closed system in a way the vendor does not support if there are (more) open alternatives?

Is it because you are forced to use an iPhone by external factors, like your employer? Are there critical features missing from Android and all the others? Is it just your personal preference?

I really don't mean to offend anyone, it's just that I perceive the closed ecosystem of the iPhone as an intentional "feature" and as I personally don't like it, I would never put my money into such a closed system just to try to jailbreak it afterwards.

View on HN

While there’s still about zero percent chance of it happening in the near term, I have to think that long-term, Apple will port Gatekeeper to iOS. It’s a near-ideal balance of security on OS X: Non-technical users can stay in the walled garden of the Mac App Store, semi-technical users can allow signed binaries, and power users can run whatever they want.

I work in the mobile healthcare space, and right now, we’re starting to move away from iOS as a platform for future projects because of the restrictions and hassle of the App Store. We’re not making 99-cent games and artisan to-do lists, so the fact that iPhone users are far more likely to spend money on apps doesn’t matter to us – we need a platform that lets us communicate with medical devices and display information for healthcare professionals without a mercurial third party deciding what we can and can’t do.

> Non-technical users can stay in the walled garden of the Mac App Store, semi-technical users can allow signed binaries, and power users can run whatever they want.

As the signed binary and app store only is the default, it's unlikely that non-technical users will actually change it.

To put it another way, to have the knowledge required to change the default, the non-technical user would have to become a semi-technical user.

To be honest, in custom software spaces like yours, I'm surprised that iOS was ever a platform of consideration.

I also make mobile medical software. When we evaluated potential tablets three years ago, all the available android tablets were pretty terrible. Especially since we wanted to prevent long-term lock-in by writing most of our application as Javascript / HTML5. iPad was very far ahead in Javascript & HTML rendering performance.

Android seems to have caught up quite a bit, but now we have momentum behind iOS. We could switch without too much difficulty, but we're in no rush to start supporting a second platform.

4 years ago what was the only decent tablet option? The iPad.

Apple's solution for running business apps and distributing them outside the app store is actually not that bad.

This is exactly my problem. I have an iPad 2. I know that if I move off iOS5 I have to move to iOS7, which really wasn't designed with the iPad 2 in mind.

I'm now stuck between a rock and a hard place. Stay where I am and many apps (like Spotify which I pay for) no longer work, or upgrade to iOS7 and know that the iPad 2 just isn't powerful to run it in the same way in runs iOS5 (for which it was designed for).

I'm desperately waiting for a jailbreak so I can install iOS6, which I see as a half way house.

The reality is that Apple are deliberately degrading older devices, in order to make them obsolete. Of course I understand they are just building software that is designed to run on the most current and powerful of their devices, but the deliberate prevention of installs of older iOS versions when a user specifically wants it is frustrating.

In hindsight I shouldn't have bought an iPad, but there wasn't a viable alternative at the time.

I'd tend to disagree with your assessment of iOS' performance on the iPad 2. I have an iPad Air and an iPad 2 and quite frankly the iPad 2 crashes less and runs more consistently on iOS 7, as opposed to my Air. It feels as though iOS 7 wasn't ready for the Air, but it has been improving with each update.

because the consideration was "oh, everybody has and is familiar with iOS devices, we'll waste less time training them and they won't make as much mistake poking around."

GateKeeper will not arrive on iOS, rather the converse will happen. Apple will lock down OSX. You will need a developer license to install 'non-approved' software. The success of iOS has demonstrated to them that people like velvet handcuffs. If you have any interest in open platforms you should not be giving Apple your money, and should be doing what you can to explain the dangers to others.

See, that’s what FOSS zealots keep telling me, but I don’t buy it. The day Apple jails the Mac is the day they turn OS X into OS Xcode, because that’s the only professional software people will use on it anymore.

Adobe, Autodesk, Microsoft, and other enterprise companies will never agree to a 30% Apple cut for their Mac software, and Apple will never allow their kludgily-accreted codebases onto the App Store. Apple’s executive team may have the balls to cut all these companies out of the platform, but they’re not stupid.

>without a mercurial third party deciding what we can and can’t do.

Isn't that Apple?

I find it to be the most stable and usable of the platforms I've seriously tried (iOS, Android, Blackberry). That said, there are a few power user features I like that aren't allowed by default: * F.lux * FakeClockUp (to decrease animation times) * Adblock * Themes (because after 6 years of using them, smartphones look a bit boring)

I could get these on Android, but generally find that I must then sacrifice on form factor (I don't like very large phones), stability, build quality (this is getting better on Android though), and ease of use (Facetime with family, iMessage, etc.).

In the end it's not a single killer feature, but tight integration with my life. I might be able to do this all on Android, but it would take more time and probably more maintenance.

I had to switch from an iPhone to a Galaxy S4 for a trip recently. Though there were some upsides, I lost count of how many points of inferiority and annoyance I noted while using it. I'm more than a little biased, but if I can have both what I perceive as a far better phone and openness, I don't want to settle for one or the other.

Then again, I haven't used a jailbreak for anything significant in a long time, so for me, the openness is more in theory.

TouchWiz is terrible. It's bloated, riddled with security holes, and doesn't follow the android UI guidelines. Users with TouchWiz are missing out on the the majority of design improvements android has had in the last 3 years.

Try out an AOSP based build (maybe the ROM from the google play edition?) on your phone. It's like night and day.

I've been trying out a Google Nexus 5 for the past few weeks and I'm not terribly impressed.

The bluetooth connection seems a bit better, and the screen is bigger, but usability wise, iOS7 is better.

I don't want most of the customizability (i.e., separate home screens/themes) and the keyboard is simply harder to use than iOS.

The whole OS feels laggy (still) even with almost-comparable hardware to the latest-get iPhone.

The only reason I want jailbreak is for something like F.lux/Twilight on iOS.

> keyboard harder to use

... it is 2013... get with the program and use Swype. It is impossible to go back.

Swype sucks if you use a lot of acronyms. Most of my work emails involve such. The iOS keyboard is really good at hunt/peck typing which is what's needed for such terse communications.

Swype causes keyboard popup delay of several hundred milliseconds on my N5. I stopped using it after 3 days.

Also what's with the default throb on key press in Android? Why would anyone find that useful?

For being a flagship phone, the GS4 is damn pathetic.

I blame TouchWiz primarily, as my fiancees N4 and my N5 are both an absolute dream to use.

So perhaps one of the things in Apple's favor here is the unified UI across all devices.

Obviously you're right on a practical level: if you want to have a phone you can hack there are far better alternatives. That said, I think part of the principle here is that all devices should be hackable, and doing so can be fun for those involved and maybe improve life for some stuck using these things. I won't be writing them a check, but I don't think it's a pointless cause either.

Yes, I don't see it as completely pointless either, it's just a question about priorities for me (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6848177 )

Its nice to use. I like how it integrates with my Mac stuff better than Android does, and iTunes Match is a killer feature. But I'd love to load FOSS onto it, so a jailbreak would be super handy.

Oh, and the main reason? 'cause we can :)

"because we can" is obviously a very legitimate reason for something like a jailbreak :) But I am not sure if it answers my question completely, because we are talking about a site which a collects money because it seems like we can't at the moment. There's nothing wrong with that, but it shows that an iPhone jailbreak seems to be a high-priority task for many here and that's something which "because we can" does not fully explain (EDIT:) because nobody collects money for a better integration of android into the mac world so far, right?

Your argument about Mac integration seems valid, I did not think about it as I am no mac user :)

1. insert usb cable into debian box

2. insert other end into ipad

3. get a dialog "trust this computer"

4. click "trust"

5. goto 3.

#*@! you apple.

God yes, this is the worst thing right now. Sigh.

I find it less compelling to jailbreak. When I switch from one provider to another it usually takes the form of contract and right now a provider like AT&T or T-Mobile gives good deal on phones. I am actually less and less on phone spec. My Atrix used to be a top phone on spec but after using it for 6, 7 months I notice it being slower and slower. And then you can't upgrade to latest Android because officially Motoral doesn't support it and I don't want to deal with custom upgrade (I have done too many and many just fail my phone). I used to get expensive unlocked phones myself but now I can get a good deal from contract bundle and they offer quite a good range of selections.

After two years I am still using this old Atrix. I might switch to Nexus one day if I had the budget for it. iPhone isn't my cake so I'd passed on. But I have to praise a closed system like iOS - update is great. No fragmentation.

I'm with you on this one. I value my ability to develop applications for my Android device free from worry about a future update taking that ability away from me. My applications never need to be on an app store, and I can share them with whomever I like, in any manner I like.

Why would I buy into an ecosystem that then forces me to hope someone far smarter than I is able to break the security of that system for me? Jailbreaks are worrisome because they introduce a potential loss of security on mine, and all users phones.

Exactly, Google will never add codes to Android KitKat that tells T-Mobile about unauthorized Tehtering.

/sarc

AFAIK, it doesn't. 4.4 contains a setting that allows a provider to specify a different APN for tethering use, which I can imagine is a legitimate feature. You can also turn it off (on IPv4 at least)

The same Nexus 4 + Android KitKat 4.4 + AT&T SIM Card does not detect unauthorized tethering. Surprisingly this "feature" only appears when using T-Mobile SIM Card. It is not the case with Android Jelly Bean 4.3

The nice thing about android is that you don't have to care what Google and your your Provider do in many cases, because the "jailbreak" is official: You can install CyanogenMod or even Replicant.

As opposed to Apple which just doesn't allow tethering on any networks.

You're right, sorry for not being more clear. What I intended to say was that Apple won't allow you to tether without approval on any networks. At least it defaults to allowing on all networks by T-Mobile.

Apple even respects T-Mobile's wishes on the matter.

I put a SIM connected to one of T-Mobile's $30/5GB prepaid accounts in my iPhone 5. When I try to turn the tethering function on, I get a prompt telling me to go to a T-Mobile website to get on a plan that supports tethering.

Ignoring the wishes of the people who gave them the better part of a thousand dollars for the piece of hardware in their hand.

The carrier control of tethering made sense back before the iPhone had market dominance. Now it's stupid and user-hostile.

That's just not even remotely true. What Apple does (to my annoyance) is allow the carriers to control whether or not the phone allows tethering. But they do allow it if the carrier does, and plenty of carriers allow it (usually after making you pay extra). I've been tethering with my iPhone on AT&T, officially, for years now.

There are a number of reasons I prefer iOS to the alternatives (mostly the quality of the third-party app ecosystem).

There are a number of reasons I like the flexibility afforded by a more open system than an out-of-the-box iPhone (from my pre-iOS 7 jailbroken days, mostly F.lux and being able to set non-Apple apps as default handlers for links/maps/etc).

For me, the former list is more compelling than the latter, so I'll happily keep using a non-jailbroken iPhone rather than switch to Android/Windows Phone/etc.

"because we can" seems like a pretty good answer. Also, a thing that's interesting to me about campaigns like this one is there are so many iphone users. Even if a small fraction of them actually want to jailbreak their phones - for carrier reasons, to install some goofy skin, whatever - there's a lot of value in getting it done. How much value? I'm not sure - but I don't think $50,000 or even $100,000 would be surprising...

> Are there critical features missing from Android and all the others?

Yes, this one applies for me. Low-latency audio and all the music making apps that iOS has.

I prefer the iPhone even without a jailbreak. But I prefer a jailbroken iPhone if I can get it. Is that not reason enough?

Android still lacks a high-quality tablet software ecosystem.

Android tablet software is the same as the phone software. The software should be written to automatically handle different screen sizes, orientations and aspect ratios as needed in a single bundle.

I like the iOS ecosystem, as well the OS X ecosystem. I like Mac products. I have a Macbook Pro. I do all sorts of hacks on it, because OS X is not locked down. I don't see why I can't do the same on iOS. I don't want to use Android or others.

I bother for two main reasons. Firstly, I vastly prefer the hardware of iOS devices over the competitors. Secondly, the software openness isn't that big of a deal—I still prefer stock (non-jailbroken) iOS to stock Android (I confess that I haven't extensively tried Windows RT or any other alternatives).

Jailbroken iOS is just icing on the cake. When there's a major iOS upgrade that causes me to lose my jailbreak, I lose a few niceties (the biggest of which is the ability to "try," as in pirate, applications), but it's not a big deal.

The main reasons I stay on iOS

1) Vender lockdown & habits - I've been using an since the second iPod Touch (as a PDA). I'm not ready/eager to change "my workflow".

2) Accessibility - iOS (and the mac os) has had some the best (or at least easiest to setup) accessibility support. I'd be happy to be wrong about this but Androids documentation is either really lacking on these features or the features aren't there.

You're absolutely right. The accessibility features are lightyears better on iOS. This means that far more people with visual impairments are using iOS and thus more apps are being developed for the blind on iOS than other platforms. It's a pretty virtuous cycle :)

> Are there critical features missing from Android and all the others?

Yes, this one for me. Audio latency and all the music making apps that iOS has.

There's only one reason for me: tethering.

The answer is, obviously, because you can (:

Security research is my primary reason.

iPhones, ostensibly, integrate much better with iTunes. I still have hundreds of Protected AAC files I bought on iTunes pre-2009 that will not play on Android phones. The only way to get around that is to burn/rip the AAC files or pay Apple to upgrade them to the other format.

It's funny that this is your reason to use an iPhone because a quite similar experience of mine was a main reason for my decision to stay away as much as possible from closed systems :)

If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't build my listening workflow around iTunes. Ten years of play counts, dozens of smart lists, and hundreds of Protected AAC files later, I'm pretty locked-in.

Just fyi: I believe [make sure this is right before you do it!] you should be able to subscribe to iTunes Match ($25/year), delete the songs from your computer, then redownload them in the DRM-free format. Not free, but probably cheaper to do that than to upgrade a bunch of songs one-by-one to the DRM-free format. Then you could drop the iTunes Match subscription.

Not a bad idea. I wonder if all of my previous purchases are still available in the store, though. Some distributers pulled out of the iTunes store when they dropped DRM.

Because I love 99% of the system, but the animations are too slow.

Animations can be easily turned off in settings

Reply on news.ycombinator.com