Comment by knowitall | Hacker News Reader

Comment by knowitall | Hacker News Reader

While I think the history of marketing of games is interesting, to be honest to me this read like "bla bla bla... Video games were heavily marketed as products for men, and the message was clear: No girls allowed.... bla bla bla"

Meaning the conclusion "no girls allowed" is just randomly inserted somewhere in the middle of a wall of text.

Just because boys and men were identified as a large audience and targeted with marketing does not imply that girls are not allowed.

Nobody is forcing you to choose either aisle in the toy shop. Just the other day I bought a playmobil horse for my son that came in a pink box. Whatever...

What exactly do they mean by girls not allowed? Girls are not allowed to play first person shooters? How would such a rule even be enforced?

Or the right games are not being made for girls, then there would be more female gamers? I think whoever believes that should go out and make those games. Put their money where their mouth is.

Never mind that there are already lots of games that are being played by lots of girls/women. "No girls allowed" simply has no foundation in reality whatsoever.

To my eyes, they're trying to bring attention to a non-existant problem (that has been solved pretty darned well with casual games ages ago) to increase readership on a pretty flamey topic, together with their twitter buddies.

I believe there are very fundamental differences between males and females and that the optimal game design would target very specifically those differences (or at least be very aware of them), unless the core of the design is the actual male-female dynamic or ecosystem. It is also more optimal to target one or the other because of the ad networks in today's world.

Psst, you are not allowed to say that :-)

I don't know - there certainly are women who play "hardcore games".

The more I think about it, the less understand what the problem is? For whatever reason, women seem to play less hardcore games. OK - but what is their problem? Do they think women unfairly miss out on all the fun? Then why don't they just tell women "hey, there is this thing called games, it's fun, try it" instead of whining that society made them miss out? Or do they complain that the wrong games are being made - which would be rather weird, because people are apparently buying these games. Or in other words, to me it seems a bit like saying "I would really like spinach, if spinach would taste like chocolate". Yeah, but spinach doesn't taste like chocolate, if you want chocolate, eat chocolate, but leave people who like spinach to their spinach. No need to convert all spinach to chocolate.

  Psst, you're not allowed to say that :-)

I get these ^ all the time these days, including HN. Whenever anyone says something like that, I know I'm on the right track. :)

As far as spinach/chocolate analogy goes, the result they're going after is even worse - it's a spinach-flavoured chocolate, or chocolate-flavoured spinach.

Spinachocolate!

Hi, I'm a lady.

Have you noticed that pretty much all "hardcore" games have male protagonists? These games tell players that they are fantasies for guys to have; women are relegated to the roles of support or prizes in most of these games. It sucks to try to be the hero when the shape of the fantasy is constantly telling you that you're not one.

And then we have the advertising campaigns mentioned in the article that market it explicitly to boys, with girls as a prize.

There have been some big-budget games with character selection screens that let you choose a lady, but how many of them prominently feature that in the marketing? Skyrim, Mass Effect, or Saint's Row all feature a male protagonist on the box, despite me enjoying all of these with a female character.

Hell, even in the realm of little casual games, it's there. I've played a lot of iOS games that have a male character from the start, and offer a female one as something you can unlock... after collecting five zillion coins, or dropping $10 in in-app purchases. Men are normalized, women are an expensive bonus prize.

Trust me, there is a constant message that "video games are for boys" running through much of the medium. Yes, women play them anyway. But we are constantly being told that the big budget action-oriented games are not for us by what roles they offer for us to play.

Edit: TL;DR I think you make the mistake to assume that games and ads targeted at men imply that there are no ads or games for women. It is OK to target games at men or women imo. I seem to recall a lot of ads for gender neutral Wii games, too.

--

It's probably true that a lot of games are targeted at men. Presumably because more men are into buying them than women. So what? There are enough games with female protagonists.

I am a man and a lot of "hardcore games" don't appeal to me (the ones that advertise on the box with "choose from 300 different weapons"). I scratch my brow and wonder about the people who enjoy that kind of thing, and move on. Luckily there are many, many good games, too.

Most games I picked for myself also have female main characters. For example I played a lot of Left 4 Dead, Tomb Raider, and many RPGs which almost always have a "customize your character" option which usually means you can play a female.

I hesitate to mention it, because I don't want to consign women to certain genres, but I don't complain about games that are about horses or whatever, either.

There are also big budget games targeted for women, like "The Sims".

Do you think a lot of women would like to play hardcore shooters? I don't know, but frankly, I am doubtful. I am not saying they shouldn't, just that perhaps companies have tried to estimate the size of the market before gendering the main hero.

Do you happen to know if the games with female heroes sold a significant amount of copies to women? I don't, but would like to know.

Edit 2: I think in most games where you can play a woman you have to do the same things as the male characters, so what do you mean by "the roles they offer for us to play"?

> So what? There are enough games with female protagonists.

I'm speaking to my own experience here. And my experience as a woman who prefers to play games as a female character is that there are not enough games with female protagonists that are not explicitly coded as "girly pink games about girly pink things". Which are generally not the kinds of games I like to play - I like the fast action reflex loops.

That's what. There are not enough games with female protagonists. And even most of the games that offer an option downplay the female option in all the advertising, make it an extra unlockable, etc. Yes, there are exceptions. I cherish them.

I think I'm gonna go pull out Bayonetta again and sigh wistfully.

edit: Oh yeah. And again, I can't speak for all women - but there are exactly three FPS games I've played to completion. They are System Shock 2, which stars a female AI and a completely ungendered protagonist, and Portal 1/2, which star a female AI and a female protagonist. If there were more manshoots that were not about being a man wandering around shooting other men, maybe I would play more of them. Or maybe not; due to my lack of interest in their narratives, I have little to no of the basic "put cursor on target, compensating for travel time" skill at the heart of manshoots, so they're pretty frustrating for me.

The article seemed to suggest there was a "girls section" and that everything else was the boys section. To my eyes and I assumed every sane person, it appears there is a "dolls section" and then every other section. The dolls section isn't exclusive to just girls and the rest of the toy store certainly isn't exclusive to just boys.

Similarly with what the author called the "girls games" section of the games area. It is my understanding that the games are organised into genres. The "cutesy" section isn't exclusive to just girls and the rest of the video games aren't exclusive to just boys.

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