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Comment by zedshaw | Hacker News Reader

Well, here we go again. You'll call me a cock, and then I'll rip you in half verbally, and then you'll forget that you called me a cock and go off telling everyone I'm such a big bad bullying meanie for all the horrible awful things I said to you, and then I'll be crushed by the general opinion all you highly influential meaningful people have about me that I'll...

Wait, actually I don't give a fuck what you think. I'm busy helping people while you're busy calling me a cock. Fuck you.

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...but this comment which is sincere, genuine and offered to someone for whom this could be greatly helpful has made me seriously reconsider. Kudos.

I felt you'd appreciate an unhedged opinion rather than me adding a bunch of weasel words like "I had the impression, right or wrong, that you were a bullying cock..."

I meant to say, very sincerely, that I was moved by your offer of help and it very much made me reconsider my opinion, as that gesture of kindness is really at odds with that impression of you.

So - sorry for calling you a cock. I thought what you did here was very noble and I admire it. I just felt there was no other way of expressing what I felt without being cowardly and weasel-worded about it.

If there is no way to express something without hurting either yourself or the other one, express yourself on a different topic. I would hate this comment too if it were directed at me.

Terrible, terrible advice.

Every interaction with someone carries the chance of impact, the closer you get to talking about things related to or stemming from their core values the higher the chance you'll provoke a strong reaction (positive or negative). If you're not willing to potentially (perhaps not intentionally) express a viewpoint that could hurt the other person, then you'll be forever only talking about unimportant gumf or giving half-stated opinions that might not get the gravitas of a situation across.

Looking someone dead in the eye and without ego telling them "You're fucking up right now. Here's why" is a loving thing to do, and I'm thankful that someone cared enough to "hurt me"

Well it's a different kind of thing to say "I think you're a cock" vs "Hey I think you're doing this wrong - I'd do this and that to improve". While the latter can have the impact you describe, the former will just create alienation and destroys any basis of sensible communication. As demonstrated above.

Hurting is optional for learning. And personally I think it's entirely disposable.

First paragraph : Note that he didn't say that. Revealing a previous passive observation versus giving advice is different. He was basically just trying to say "I think I've had the wrong impression of you", but perhaps wanted to let him know just how strong of a negative impression he had. To me it read more like a sort-of public apology for holding a mistaken belief about Zed's character and possibly nudging others to reconsider any similar viewpoints.

Second point: Yup, optional just like most tools, and just like most tools there's always a set specific challenges where it can work wonders compared to the rest of the shed.

Your mileage may vary but I'd be very surprised if you can't think of a single lesson you've remembered better because there was some pain involved, we're supposedly hardwired to better remember those lessons, for obvious life-prolonging reasons.

I also read it as a public apology.

You'd be surprised how many lessons are quite useless, regardless of their painfulness. Many of the things that happen don't have a systematical meaning that we can adapt our behavior to, but they happen because of chaos. A car accident that teaches you to always look left first (because you looked to the right, and bumped into a car coming from the left) at intersections can be very hurtful, e.g. if people are killed. And you will never-ever again forget to look left first, and never have an accident again due to this very reason, right? But, is that lesson any good? You might never again get into a similar situation, because the reason you looked to the right at that very moment was some dork honking at you. Or even worse, this lesson could lead to another accident because you are neglecting cars coming from the right.

Pain keeps you from touching that oven or from jumping down your balcony, but it's not a suitable tool to drive home a lesson. It holds us back. If you add painful lesson after lesson on top of your "fixed constraints" stack, then you won't be able to freely move after a while.

Nobody would grasp at straws enough to suggest to another man that the pain with a lesson is directly proportional to it's usefulness, that would be terrible, like the fate of the idiot in your analogy that decides the lesson learned is to look left.

So you burn yourself taking a casserole out, do you stop cooking? I'd hope not, you just now have the good sense to pay attention when dealing with hot, dangerous objects. We cherish this feedback, both as people and as entrepreneurs, that's one of the reasons we build MVPs

We could go a bit abstract and talk about pain/discomfort (including emotional) as devices, and I could give you anecdotes of when a former boss took me aside and plainly laid out why I could never hope to get where I wanted if I followed my current vector, but as we're anecdueling where's the fun in that :p

Talk to any gymnast and they'll usually be able to tell, if not show you physical remnants of, all the painful lessons they've learnt along the path of self-improvement. Ask them if they'd be half as good if they hadn't made those painful mistakes. Better yet ask them what makes an awesome gymnast, they'll usually tell you it's more about having "no fear" when going for stuff. Of course that's an oversimplification and discounts the years of training and talent, but there's a realist perspective in there.

Yes there will be painful lessons along the way, such is life. Not to go all ad populum on you but it's a fairly standard cliche that the people who can take the experiences, learn from the setbacks and not let the fear of another fall stop them trying will learn an awful lot faster and deeper than if they shy away from anything potentially upsetting. That fear of being upset by something is a personal issue and may limit what someone can achieve.

What a world, what a world.

If a man helps another man, which I consider normal and I thought everyone would, you are "moved" when someone is nice. On the other hand it's a scandal if someone seems unfriendly, even though their actions are kind.

Stop please. And as parent wrote, nobody really cares that you changed your opinion. Opinions are nothing, you know. Actions on the other hand really count.

I hate to be go all happy family on you, but please avoid swear words in a public forum like hacker news. There are enough forums where that sort of behaviour is a part of the culture and it degrades everyone.

I would assume that discouraging people from speaking their minds the way they feel like to is more harmful to a community than having to tolerate the occasional cuss word.

I know this is just a plea of yours, not an order, but it still comes across as patronizing to me. If you hate going all happy family on someone, don't do it. It will achieve nothing but aggravate them.

What you're actually asking is for people to repress their emotions, and that's way more degrading.

There are many ways to express emotions.

Ah... and you know the right way.

In a civil, intellectual manner that shows deliberate thought, as opposed to letting garbage tumble from the mouth, perhaps?

I don't see a single fucking swear word in his reply...

I love you Zed. I would bear manbabies for you.

I can remember the old days when there wouldn't be a week without Zedshaw this and Zedshaw that on HN.

And the very fact I love you is your pure, raw, passionate ethics.

I like you because you do not just ignore dumbasses. You give them a chance to see gravity of their delusion and to repent. If that means taking a dude and rubbing his nose into the poo, then be it.

Zedshaw is like an amplifying mirror. Be nice to him and he will reflect and amplify the niceness. Take him for a fool... Brace down for some Righteous Fury (tm).

I think you greatly misunderstood the intent of that message. Still, I doubt you give a fuck what I think either, so as you were.

I don't think Zed misunderstood anything. That poster is standing in judgement of Zed, and has Zed expressed his reaction.

Why not try turning the attack into a compliment and make the attacker love, that's what alpha males do. :) If you need to say fuckk, your original point wasn't strong enough and you needed to reinforce it.

Saying fuck normally should be used to create rapport with someone and allowing him to use the word too.

Welp, quite some deep psycho analysis shit here.^^

Hmm, I didn't read his reply that way. Maybe you're just going off... half-cocked?

This entire post should be about the OP, and now it is about ZS. Can we just delete this entire subtree, please?

I actually like your personality. You're one of the few people that don't take shit and actually stand by your actions/words.

Even with all the people shitting on your online persona, you continue to work, you've produce some stuff that people enjoy (learn the hard way), it's really admirable.

People like you - the genuinely transparent and fearless - are the only ones capable of sincere gestures. The scoundrels and cowards hate you because your honesty makes them self-conscious, so they'll fight you on grounds of "politeness".

Thank you for your honesty. Whether you care or not, know that the people that value it -truly- do (unlike the cooze that reacted on you).

Also, thank you for your amazing coding lessons. Your CLI book/guide is largely responsible for helping me land my current job. I have ADHD:PI and find your "cut through the bullshit" method of teaching INCREDIBLE. I've purchased your Python book and look forward to the experience.

I'll upvote any use of the word "cooze" especially one so apt.

> People like you - the genuinely transparent and fearless - are the only ones capable of sincere gestures.

Bullshit.

I assure you that I am very little like Zed -- apart from my fear and opaqueness, I also appreciate the mean as an excellent first-order summary statistic -- and yet I am very sincere in my belief that your response is pure vacuity.

How can someone opaque and fearful make sincere gestures? Sincerity is only possible through honesty and integrity. Honesty and integrity require courage.

As for the mean as a first-order statistic, we clearly have different values... I like mine better.

Cheers!

> Wait, actually I don't give a fuck what you think. I'm busy helping people while you're busy calling me a cock. Fuck you.

You so don’t give a fuck that you replied straight away.

But at least you didn’t have to repeat how busy you are helping people, since the poster you so-don’t-care-about-that you-had-to-reply-to specifically called it out as noble, amirite?