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You can have cute little Norwegian jails with light sentences when the population is Norwegians. But America is not Norway. We have a large underclass of people capable of destroying whole communities. Have you seen those pictures of Detroit in ruins? Crime in the 1970s got out of control. Stuff like this played a role in turning it around.

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>But America is not Norway.

I wonder why that is... Perhaps this attitude has something to do about it?

>We have a large underclass of people capable of destroying whole communities.

Where "large underclass of people" means black, latino and generally poor, and "whole communities" means cozy, middle class existance.

And destroying means "stealing a wallet from a hotel" or "borrowing a van", clearly acts that should be punished with life sentences.

Crime in the 1970s got out of control. Stuff like this played a role in turning it around.

Does anyone have any data to back this claim up?

Check the CDC website, it has the stats. Violent crime has been in decline in the US since the 1970s.

(Down voted for pointing out where to get the stats - very funny - must be DOJ folks)

Everyone agrees that violent crime is in decline. But the cause is a hotly disputed issue. I personally don't find compelling the idea that tough on crime laws are the cause.

Well, quite a lot of politicians and pundits seem to think otherwise. It is getting a bit tiresome. Also, I was responding to someone who wanted a citation of the stats.

Freakanomics has a long section on it that contradicts Gladwell and I am inclined to believe the Freakanomics since they back it up with stats.

This isn't scientific but It just seems like the 70's had a very chaotic vibe with a lot of external stuff hitting the US. The economy wasn't strong and we were going into a massive transition (factory -> office). Nixon (scandal & economy) and Carter (personified weak) didn't help a whole lot. A lot of in decline thinking causes a lot of unrest and crime.

I would rank most tough crime laws as a cause not a cure.

Down voted for pointing out where to get the stats

Probably best to just assume it was an accident. I've done it more than once on mobile.

I wish the up arrow was bigger and the down arrow was moved after the [link]. It would save a lot of hassle and provide a guidance that up is nicer than down.

Yeah, the decline in murder counts, for example.

http://i.imgur.com/S5QjFxC.png

Does anyone know of any research showing that the decline in murder counts is primarily due to harsher penalties?

For example, Steven Pinker looks into this a little in "The Better Angels of Our Nature", long story short there's nothing conclusive, and a sufficiently motivated person can find reasons to doubt it (e.g., the big drop in crime happened some ten years after the ramp up of incarceration rates, Canada experienced a similar decline in crime over that period without the corresponding increase in prison population), however, Pinker himself thinks that when all is said and done it seems likely that incarceration was one of the reasons. One other contributing factor was a large increase in the size of police forces during Clinton's presidency. On top of that, he argues the culture just for some reason shifted to being less violent.

(I want to also mention that he debunks quite convincingly the theory that the decrease in crime had anything to do with legalizing abortion.)

About this time someone always links to the lead and crime story. And because its a good article I'll link to it now. http://m.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link...

I'm sure there (check the prison union website) is but books like Freakanomics give different reasons (legalized abortions).

A lot of people attribute it to Roe v Wade[1]. Less unwanted babies growing up in environments that lead to a life of crime.

[1] see Freakonomics

What is it about Norwegians that's different from this "large underclass"? Just come out and say it.

I don't think he likes black people or Hispanics.

To be fair... that makes him no different than a lot of Americans. Though he may be in the minority here on HN.

I see the noun "underclass" here more as a factual description. Blacks and latinos are (especially in NYC!) treated like 3rd-class citizens, and they're far more likely to end up in jail for stuff a white person would just get a slap on the wrist.

Crime is a byproduct of a broken social system, not a cause.

Does the stupidity of politicians to adequately address these problems warrant human rights violations? I don't believe so!

[ citation needed ]

you are defending this insanity? did you read the link?

I won't specifically defend life sentences for non-violent crimes, but I would defend very harsh sentences for repeat offenses. The profiled people demonstrate terribly poor self restraint and judgment. I strongly suspect they were ongoing severe burdens on their communities in many unmentioned ways.

> I strongly suspect they were ongoing severe burdens on their communities in many unmentioned ways.

You're painting a picture that's not connected at all with the information we've been provided and you're using it to support your personal stance.

Yes, the ACLU article is presenting their story in the opposite way; but just because they're painting these people in a positive light doesn't mean that they're hiding a series of continual, unrepentant actions of which these particular crimes are the ones they were caught for. In fact, in one of the cases, the article argues that the judge didn't want to give the sentence that he gave, but his hands were tied by standards.

Life in jail for poor restrain and judgement? Are you trying to be funny?

Should you get life for your post, which shows poor judgement and no ability to restrain it?

Norwegians comprise a mere 0.6% of the population of Europe.

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