Comment by selmnoo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by selmnoo | Hacker News Reader

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It is strange reading that about Yeezus, Kanye made Yeezus with a number of other musicians (the full list, according to Wiki: 88-Keys, Ackee Juice Rockers, Arca, Benji B, Carlos Broady, Brodinski, Ben Bronfman, Evian Christ, Eric Danchild, Daft Punk, Mike Dean, Dom Solo, Jack Donoghue, Gesaffelstein, Noah Goldstein, Lunice, Lupe Fiasco, Hudson Mohawke, No ID, Che Pope, Rick Rubin, S1, Travis Scott, and Sham Joseph).

So, when he's praising the horns line, the piano line, or the complex electronic effects, it's not Kanye who's responsible for all of that, it's Daft Punk, it's Mike Dean, or Mohawke.

Anyway, I'm getting unnecessarily off-topic here. So to get back: Lou Reed was undeniably an innovator like no other, a true hacker. He knew how to play a mean guitar (jazz, blues, rock'n'roll and a whole lot else), he wrote great poetry. The greatest thing that's said about him is, indeed, as another commenter already has said: "Only about 3000 people bought Velvet Underground albums, but all of them started a band."

My two favorite songs of his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffr0opfm6I4 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wNknGIKkoA

Kanye has been pretty honest about his abilities as a producer. He was always a chopped-up samples producer and started bringing in musicians and other producers to layer original instrumentation over his samples on his first album. That style evolved with each subsequent album, with his albums prior to Yeezus being extremely orchestrated and huge.

There is absolutely no-doubt that Kanye is the ringleader in this. He puts a bunch of people in a room, and while he may not be the person pounding the keys, but he's putting it all together and making it cohesive.

I can listen to the Hudson Mohawke / TNGHT song that Kanye used in "Blood on the Leaves" and think it's an okay song. But the way it comes in on Blood on the Leaves with Kanye's rapping and the "Strange Fruit" sample left me floored the first few times I heard it. He made those TNGHT so much more powerful.

Kanye's influence over rap is enormous (the singing rap thing that Drake and others are using really didn't gain mainstream attention until 808's) and he's extremely successful commercially. It's not accident, nor is it the simple result of others' work. It's the work of someone who is meticulous in his craft, knows his limitations, and respects the work of others while pointing them in the direction he wants to move.

"but he's putting it all together and making it cohesive" No, that was Rick Rubin who did that.

So we know Kanye isn't a great rapper (he's had many songs Ghost written and I think its a pretty common belief among hip-hop heads) and you say he can't produce well? What can he do well?

I don't have the time to go through it all unless you really want me to, but your last post was riddled with fallacies and pretty biased opinion.

Lou Reed was something else, Kanye is what he made himself (a pop star). I doubt anyone's going to pick up a copy of Yeezus in 40 years and be amazed in the way people continue to pick up copies of The Velvet Underground & Nico.

There are two meanings of "producer" at play here: a) he who cuts a beat, b) he who produces an album. Kanye was limited yet very successful at A, and he may be the best in his field at B.

Kanye may not be the world's best rapper, but he is no slouch, and to be producing (both meanings) in the capacity he does at the same time is staggering. I like to tell people it's as if Martin Scorsese played the lead role in all of his own movies.

From everything I've read, Rick Rubin arrived late to the project and edited a mountain of work down into a short album.

I'm not sure what fallacies my post was riddled with. Yes, some of it was opinion. And I never said Kanye West couldn't produce well. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with the Rick Rubin comment either. Do you have a high opinion of Rick Rubin? I'm pretty sure Rick Rubin has a high opinion of Kanye.

I make music as a hobby, am fairly decent at it (IMHO, anyway) and listen to a lot of music. Kanye puts together songs, particularly on Yeezus, that are different than what else is out there and I have little doubt that Yeezus will influence a lot of rap over the next few years.

I never tried to equate Kanye West to Lou Reed.

I think part of the reason a lot of people don't take Kanye seriously as an artist is that he behaves like a petulant twit. In this day and age of pop musicians being embroiled in controversy after controversy, Kanye gives them all a run for their money. From interrupting someone who was getting an award and voicing his thoughts on who he thinks should have won, to having no sense of reservation and calling himself the "greatest living rockstar", and handling himself the worst possible way when he gets criticized (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB9dk66ICVQ), he's in the frontline lowering the bar. The man has absolutely no class, I'd rather he just abandon the scene. Similarly, I don't care if Chris Brown is really talented or not -- he's bloodied up women, his misogynistic behavior should have him set aside so that he no longer has a platform.

That's all just myth-building, and he's done a brilliant job of it. Take this very message thread for instance, on a technology forum thread about Lou Reed of all things, the conversation is dominated by Kanye West.

If we start to question artists morally then very quickly a lot of significant work and artists should 'abandon the scene'. From Lennon to Wagner, Ferdinand-Celine to Bill Murray, Polanksi via Woody Allen, to Chris Brown to Kanye (probably the mildest on this shopping list).

What's different this time around is that the pop stars' life details are part of their shtick more than ever before. Chris Brown is a 'bad boy', this is how he's packaged. What is of concern is that, this kind of behavior is being normalized in society at large when it's reigning a significant portion of the pop media cycle.

The common criticism with Lennon was that he was a bad husband and father in his first marriage -- but this part of his life was never publicized, indeed, it was actively suppressed by his PR managers. And for whatever it's worth, Lennon was in the process of making amends in his final days anyways.

"I think part of the reason a lot of people don't take Kanye seriously as an artist is that he behaves like a petulant twit."

But the thing is, people DO take Kanye seriously as an artist. His albums are constantly praised over and over again by critics. Even in places you wouldn't really expect it, there is a general acceptance that Kanye is leading the pack when it comes to innovation in pop music.

He does well. Music is subjective, but here's a glimpse at his creative process:

https://youtu.be/2L27MMkVl08

>> "So, when he's praising the horns line, the piano line, or the complex electronic effects, it's not Kanye who's responsible for all of that, it's Daft Punk, it's Mike Dean, or Mohawke."

To bring this round to tech I guess it's similar to Steve Jobs getting credit for the iPhone when a lot of the work was done by the engineers. In other words Kanye had to bring those people together and guide the creation of the music or it wouldn't have happened.

I think you're too readily writing off the role of the producer in the case of 'Yeezus.' Classics like Steely Dan's 'Aja', Quincy Jones' 'The Dude', and, in hip-hop, Dr. Dre's 'The Chronic' were crafted in much the same way, a collaboration between producers with a grand vision and a cast of musicians who could see it to realization.

> It is strange reading that about Yeezus, Kanye made Yeezus with a number of other musicians

As with his music, Reed is assuming his audience isn't an idiot. In this case, Reed assumes that you can fully internalize what West's role was and understand his words accordingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Record_producer

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