Hacker News Reader

Comment by baby | Hacker News Reader

I was really skeptical about this and I'm getting more and more skeptical.

1. See how he always lift his right hand thumb to reproduce the same movement, sometimes three times, just to go through the screen (in Civ5).

2. Also the fact that buttons get mapped like a "pie chart" on the trackpads could have been a good idea, but we need buttons. We forget the luxury of having buttons with all those new tactile screens because we want more tactile surface, but for a controller we hold in our hands, we need some feedbacks bellow our fingers. This is really a bad idea...

3. I'll have to admit that it looks like a better alternative than joysticks for FPS games.

EDIT: As someone else pointed out, if you get two controllers : a valve one for FPS, RTS, games that works well with it, and a Xbox/PS4 controller for the rest, then it's a very good thing.

View on HN

What exactly are you skeptical of? The skepticism previously was that this controller would be unusable. This video shows a person playing PC games with the controller rapidly and with skill.

I still want to see a platformer and a fighting game since the best mapping is a little unclear. (Though these a) won't be showstoppers and b) are likely to be workable.) Humans are adaptable and if this controller is reasonably usable in all the main gaming genres then very quickly you'll see people get really, really good at using it.

i play for leisure with a mouse on a pc and I'm not a pro or anything. Yet, i'm way smoother, faster and accurate at the same time. I mean I can headshot pretty often within 50ms. This guy needs a full second on NON-MOVING targets in counterstrike. He would have zero chance against a mouse user. zero.

Remember that this guy played with the controller for a long time and his job is to make it look like as good as possible.

So yeah, the controller seems ABSOLUTELY fine for a controller (and probably more precise in some cases than a "regular" controller), but please, let's not fool ourselves, this is NOT a PC gaming experience - i.e. this is very far from the level of control a MOUSE provides.

It doesn't show a person playing PC games rapidly - it shows, for example, a common Civ5 action (moving cursor to a position in menu and clicking) being slow and awkward, requiring multiple separate finger movements just to push the cursor from middle of screen to side.

It's better than any other couch-options, but the controls in Civ still looked frustrating instead of fun.

He was explicit in that he was demonstrating 1:1 legacy mouse support, presumably there are other options for non-legacy games (and perhaps legacy games too?)

For example, my macbook track pad takes velocity into account. Something like that could make a big difference for covering large distances. I'm withholding judgment until I try one.

But then I play FPS with a trackball now, so it doesn't seem so alien to me.

He lifts his finger just as much in Portal play as he does in Civ. It's incredibly fast. The ergonomics of this thing make it pretty hard to say that it will be frustrating to track the cursor across the screen just because you have to lift your finger. Think about how you use a trackball. This is basically a trackpad device with the thumb ergonomics of a trackball.

The last time I touched (or saw) a trackball was a dozen years ago, so it's hard to say - but on any acceptable trackpad its dpi should allow to move across the screen in a single motion, shouldn't it?

I.e., if I move my finger across the whole steam controller right pad, then the sensitivity should be high enough to move across the whole screen in that motion while still allowing enough accuracy to click where I want.

I would be shocked if it couldn't be configured that way.

If, for example, some pad was an inch-wide and with 1000 dpi resolution, then it couldn't ever be configured to cover a 2000 pixel wide screen that way - we don't know the specs of the controller elements yet.

With some acceleration it could - finer control with small movements, but quick movements provide more travel. Not sure how well this would work, but I like Apple's implementation on their trackpad (I realise I may be in the minority here!).

It's an example of a control scheme the controller drivers allow you to come up with in order to map to a game's expected mouse-and-keyboard inputs. If a game developer wants to explicitly support the controller, then even better schemes can be designed.

> The skepticism previously was that this controller would be unusable.

Who really thought Valve making a controller would make an unusable one? This was never a concern. The concern here is that it might work well with FPS, RTS etc... (or good enough)... but might not work as good as button based controllers for other genres.

I don't see this competing with a mouse. "Ratcheting" around your POV with your right thumb would make any FPS intolerable.

However, playing a FPS on anything but a Oculus Rift or equivalent is going to feel quaint in a few months.

The controller is not competing with a mouse! Valve is trying to replace the standard console controller and it looks like a large improvement over the thumbstick.

If by ratcheting you mean the repeated movements to look around, that is very similar to moving a mouse with a low sensitivity settings.

Of course this is meant to compete with a mouse. It's intended to let people play mice based games, such as FPS and RTS with a controller.

It's intended to take the gaming pc (and by, extension steam) out of the man-cave and into the living room to compete with consoles. This requires providing people with an ability for people to play FPS and RTS decently with a controller, rather than a mouse, or they are going to stick with their man caves and mice.

It's not competing with a mouse, it's competing with "a mouse and solitude in a man cave", since these are coupled together due to the fact a mouse can't be used in the living room practically. In other words, if this is close enough to the mousing experience to make the net experience of playing PC games in the living room better than the same experience with a mouse in solitude, it will be a hit.

The problem will be in multiplayer. Going online and being repeatedly destroyed by mouse players won't be much fun.

Also I guess difficulty in singleplayer games would have to take the control scheme into account.

In other words, it solves the problem that they are trying to solve well, and does not solve problems that they are not trying to solve?

All the messaging I have been getting from Valve is it is a no compromise controller.

2. It looks like the pads are "pressable", so whilst they can react to touches, you can configure them to only react to presses. Not quite the same as buttons, but it might be good enough.

You might be interested in looking at Tommy Refenes thoughts on his testing of the steam controller prototype. He discusses using it to play his difficult platformer Super Meat Boy:

http://tommyrefenes.tumblr.com/post/62476523677/my-time-with...

and IIRC he says he will keep playing with an Xbox Controller eventually.

What he _actually_ said is slightly more nuanced:

   If you were to ask me to choose between Steam Controller and a 360 
   controller, I would choose 360. Don’t take that as slight to the controller 
   though because it’s more about the comfort of familiarity over 
   functionality. I would choose a 360 controller because I have several 
   thousand hours experience using it, however if tomorrow all game controllers 
   were wiped off the earth and the only option was the Steam Controller, I 
   don’t think this would be a bad thing. In fact, I don’t think gaming would 
   miss a beat.

1. It's like having your mouse on a tiny mousemat. As someone who once had a tiny mousemat, it works great for turn based games but anything real time is no fun at all. You can simulate this feeling right now by using a round beermat.

2. Something as simple as putting one tiny raised dot at each of the 4 main positions would make a huge difference.

> 1

I couldn't watch the entire video because of my connection but note that he did say it was in "legacy" mode, i.e. the game has not been modified at all for the controller and the controller has likely not been changed from whatever it's default configuration is. If you use a mouse or trackpad on their default configuration things will generally be difficult if they're not what you're used to. I've gotten so accustomed to the acceleration on my trackpad that there are many things I can do on it without thinking that I would struggle with on my trackball or laser mouse. I agree that this particular set up as they've shown looks very awkward. What could make it great though– assuming no modification to the game– is to treat it like an inverted ThinkPad trackpoint. If it feels just right and the acceleration is either customizable or perfectly tuned, I think it could be a lot of fun and avoid the trackpad/mouspad-too-small issue.

> 2

I imagine this will come up during the beta and probably result in something close to what you suggest. Either a dot like on F/J keys or a small dimple.

There are haptics, so it feels like you have a button on the trackpad even if one is not actually present.

Haptics don't allow for many touch instincts, like edge-detection and depth of depression. It's better than no acknowledgement, but it's dramatically different.

As an exaggerated counterpoint: imagine operating a buttonless, flat "haptic" vibrating keyboard in a moving vehicle, and contrast with a conveniental keyboard.

> Something as simple as putting one tiny raised dot at each of the 4 main positions would make a huge difference.

Hmmm. You could do that yourself at home with a little Sugru...

I agree the Civ5 demo didn't look good, but did you watch all the way through to the Papers, Please demo? I think using both pads to control the mouse cursor could end up being really good. In fact, it could be even better than a real mouse in some ways, since you sometimes have to lift a real mouse but you shouldn't ever have to lift both thumbs at once.

> I think using both pads to control the mouse cursor could end up being really good.

I don't know. I've tried using two hands on a big trackpad once and it just gets confusing. Maybe with more practice but I felt like it was more a brain confused problem than a material one.

Certainly there would be a learning curve, but in a well-designed game learning the input device is part of the fun. I think there's nothing about controlling a mouse pointer with both thumbs that would make it inherently less learnable than e.g. traditional gamepad FPS controls (which are anything but intuitive).

1. If I can play Civ5 while sitting on my couch, I'll put up with it.

True, it look playable compared to what a joystick could offer. The real problem is going to be with platformers, fight games, third person games who relies heavily on buttons.

Its just a matter of using the right tool for the job. Plug in an xbox 360 controller for games where it makes the most sense. Use this steam controller for any game which you'd normally use mouse and keyboard for but want to play from the couch.

It would be a nice tweak if when you put your thumb all the way to the edge you would get decaying momentum on the cursor while you moved your thumb back into place to swipe the mouse forward again. And if you didn't go all the way to the edge it would stay as it was in the demo.. with some haptic feedback to let you tell the difference. I guess it would ultimately make it feel like having a thumb trackball.

There is no reason a touch pad can't be as accurate and natural as at least a trackball, which could already probably let you play Civ from your couch.. or quake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Yky7WXrwU

but we need buttons. We forget the luxury of having buttons with all those new tactile screens because we want more tactile surface, but for a controller we hold in our hands, we need some feedbacks bellow our fingers. This is really a bad idea...

Until I actually have the controller in my hand, I can't make that assumption at all.

I feel it was a somewhat poor demonstration of the controller. Each demo was set up for a game without, or as if the game did not have, controller support. Games with controller support would make it feel more like a traditional console controller. No idea why did not show that aspect of it.

The video was called Steam Controller Demonstration 001. One might expect that some of those complaints will be addressed in later demonstrations.

Probably because this controller is meant to allow you to play games with a controller that you traditionally couldn't.

I'm kinda baffled by all the people in these threads talking about platformers or fighting games. That's completely missing the point, which is very obviously not to replace traditional gamepads, but to complement them.

Even talking about competitive FPSes or DOTA sort of gets it wrong. Among the few games Valve prominently displayed in their announcement were Europa Universalis and Football Manager, turn-based mouse-driven games. That is where this controller should shine. It allows you to sit back and relax while playing thoughtful games that would be impossible with the typical gamepad.

For #2 I think very shallow, subtle, radially extended, slight-but-noticeable curvature might be enough.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com