Comment by benihana | Hacker News Reader

Comment by benihana | Hacker News Reader

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>In fact it only gets in your way. Solving problems that are new (to you) involves writing code to find out if a certain approach works, then throwing it away and trying something else. TDD makes that process a lot slower, and makes people more reluctant to throw away incorrect models of the problem that they have codified into tests without even realising it.

This is a giant strawman. Who is saying to write tests for your prototypes? You seem to be confusing a bunch of different methodologies here. You're talking about rapid prototyping to understand a domain before building a long term solution. That isn't TDD, and it would be foolish to write tests for an exploratory exercise that you're planning to throw away.

>TDD forces you to decide about one of the hardest parts of development (API design / where to place abstraction boundaries) up front before you have worked out how to solve the problem at all

How do you figure? If you've done a rapid prototype like you're advocating, you should have a better understanding of where boundaries lie and how the API should work. Further, you seem to be working under the impression having tests make it hard to change things. If anything, I've noticed the opposite - tests make it much easier to change code, especially when you test behavior, not implementation.

If you are iterating their isn't always distinct prototypes — just quick first-draft implementations. Sometimes these are good enough.

In my experience once everyone is happy with the way something works then it is sensible to move to lock-down — tests, documentation, performance testing, refactoring.

Doing any of those four things is a waste of time and energy until the design is decided upon. In agile development the design is not decided upon before the first code is written. It is always jointly discovered through iteration and discussion between designers, user-testers and developers.

If you write your documentation first then I suspect you can get away with writing all your tests first. But that's not a process I would call 'agile' and I doubt it ever results in good software.

I interviewed with a company one time that ran with TDD and pairing like a religion.

The guy I was interviewing with didn't like the fact that I thought about how the problem might be shaped (and therefore made assumptions as to what I might want to implement and refine via tests) prior to “writing” that first failing test. It was absolute nonsense and I was rather shocked that the company managed to ship anything, to be honest.

I'm a big fan of tests; I'm a big fan of pairing. They are tools; nothing more.

An interview recently felt like that. I was just throwing together little bits of code to make sure I understood the problem clearly, but the interviewer seemed to be a bit agitated that I didn't write a test right away.

I honestly don't work like that. So I'm kinda glad I failed that interview.

Yeah. I've recently done a couple of interviews on the other side of the fence (as the interviewer), and I've hit on a problem that can be worked out collaboratively between the interviewee and the interviewer—and how far we go depends on their skill.

It always begins a discussion of the problem and what we want to solve, plus a bit of how—so we can figure out what it is that we're going to be testing for and how to build from that point.

I think the point is more the the final "prototype" is the "implementation". The core fallacy of TDD is that there is a single moment where you start work. True iterative development doesn't work that way.

Which is not to say that both TDD and iteration don't have their uses. But they work together poorly. And the problems best solved by TDD seem boring to some of us.

TDD is supposed to work WITH iteration. You have one feature, you write the test for it, you implement it, pass the test, and go on to the next feature, etc.

Implementing features piecewise is not remotely the same thing as iterative development. The point to iteration is that you develop your understanding of the problem along with the solutions, many of which get thrown away.

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