Hacker News Reader

Comment by madaxe | Hacker News Reader

I had the benefit of attending the British, German, and American school systems.

Schooling in America has little to do with education, and much to do with indoctrination.

Pretty much the only thing I learned was the pledge of allegiance - over which I repeatedly got suspended, as I refused to recite it along with the rest of the class, every morning.

Everything else they "taught" was years behind what I'd been learning elsewhere, and none of it was teaching - it was all just OBEY. I used to kick like a mule whenever they tried to teach us something factually incorrect by rote - and got in trouble for it.

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!

View on HN

You cannot be suspended for not saying the Pledge. You cannot be compelled to say the Pledge. Your rights were violated. The Supreme Court of the United State has ruled that it is well within your right to not say it. See West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Ed...

Writing for the majority, Justice Jackson stated: "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."

"Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest," wrote Black and Douglas in a concurring opinion. "Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions."

In high school I repeatedly got in trouble for not participating in the pledge. I acquired a copy of this case. My government teacher told me I was reading it wrong, and actually the verdict was the pledge is required. It mostly ended one day in the principal's office when I politely threatened to contact the aclu.

Interesting that so many free speech cases were pioneered by the Jehovas Witnesses.

Not really. Pure self interest can explain this. As far as I know they were (and still are) underdogs. Free speech is one of the things that favours underdogs, and is not easily openly attacked.

The thing a lot of people don't understand about free speech is the kind of speech that needs to be protected is the unpopular kind; the kind that very few people agree with. Popular speech needs no defending.

I don't understand a lot of Americans who run around talking about "America the free" and then try to pass laws to limit the expression of anyone who doesn't live exactly like they do. Freedom means some people aren't going to agree with you, and you're going to have to accept it, and allow them to express themselves too.

This is right, but there are many religious minorities who engage in unpopular speech. I was raised as a Quaker for example. I just think it is interesting that Jehovah's Witnesses have been a group which has laid so much of the groundwork of this sort of thing.

It also makes me wonder how much cross-pollenation there has been between Anabaptist movements, Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses and other similarly non-mainstream groups. That however is a question for another time.

Spot on.

This only applies to public (state run) schools. Maybe he got suspended from a private school.

Yup. Uptight preppy hole near Chicago.

Whoops, you're right. I didn't consider that the poster went to a private school, in which case all bets are off.

Worth noting that there isn't a "British" education system - Scotland has it's own school courses, exams and university level course structure (e.g. it is possible to go to university after 5 years in high school so first degree courses are 4 years rather than 3 as in England).

You had to recite a pledge of allegiance? Wow. Sounds like North Korea.

The Pledge of Allegiance is recited every morning at almost every school in the United States. It is taught to children much too young to understand what it means. Here are the current words:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

It is said facing the flag, with your right hand over your heart. Originally it was said while saluting the flag, however, it was replaced with the hand over heart gesture during WWII, as it was similar to the Nazi salute.

Congressional sessions also open with the recital of the Pledge of Allegiance.

By the way, the words "under God" where only added on June 14, 1954.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

It wasn't similar to the nazi salute - it was the same. Bellamy salute. The NSDAP thought it was such a great bit of nationalistic fervor they adopted it.

A Supreme Court decision from during World War II[1] requires schools to allow pupils to opt out of the pledge of allegiance. Most states in the United States still make the pledge a default school activity every day of the school year except for pupils who individually opt out.

[1] West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) http://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1949/1942/1942_591

I found this to be really regional. I did when I was a kid, then I questioned our teacher why she did not after the first week or so. She felt the whole standing, gazing and hand over the heart was a bit too military for an elementary school.

I've had a few "super patriotic" teachers threaten me with detention for not towing the line. But these tended to be in urban and ex-urban, lower socioeconomic schools. The type of places that wanted to make you into factory workers rather than college students.

Where I grew up the Pledge was absolutely a mandatory part of every school day, and was said before morning announcements through the loudspeaker. Every room had a flag in it, so students in that room could Pledge to it. I grew up in an urban area, so my experiences are skewed urban. I couldn't imagine an individual teacher having a choice in the matter.

Of course, as I posted in the parent, the Supreme Court allows for individual students to stay seated and not salute the flag if they choose.

The role of public school in the United States, especially when it first started, explicitly was to churn out factory workers[1]. The fact that non-industrial knowledge is also taught is a side effect of later developments.

[1] http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

Some public schools were started right after the American Revolution, before anything was very industrialized. Horace Mann and Booker T. Washington led a massive expansion that followed through the mid-1800's. I'm quite sure Mann and Washington were not looking to produce unthinking factory workers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann#Education_reform

I am pretty sure schools were started shortly after the early settlements were made in the US, i.e., 1650 or so. I don't think factories as we know them existed then.

Industrial schooling only started in the industrial era. That's more of what I meant even though I certainly botched what I meant to say. I'll blame it on the lack of coffee!

Oh right, I was reading an article on "Education in the United States" which started its story post-revolution.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com