And so it slowly begins, the alienation of Zed Shaw from the Python community.
The way I see it, Zed made a (correct and polite) criticism of Python. Someone childishly taunted back at his criticism with the typical "where's the patch?" defensiveness, and he's now responding in a rather polite fashion. If Zed is making a mistake, it's that he's engaging in the debate at all. He's expressed his opinion -- if the Python people are so petty that they can't handle constructive criticism, the best response is to ignore them and move on.
yeah, right. he's a talker.
Jesse gave a lightning talk at PyCon this past year, blowing off some steam about the people that complain about Python on Slashdot/Reddit/Hacker News without submitting a patch. The video is here if you're interested. It's actually kinda funny: http://pycon.blip.tv/file/1931026/
He suggested a new Python license that would forbid people complaining about the language without first submitting a patch. If people did this they would be "Van Lindberged". Van Lindberg is the Python software foundation's lawyer.
Jesse proceeded to showcase the "Van Lindberg engine." It was a javscript bookmarklet that took a comments page on reddit that complaining about python, and superimposed pictures of Van Lindberg all over it. The reddit page had then been "Van Lindberged" or "Lindbergified".
It didn't sound like Guido was trying to start shiznit with Zed. It sounded like he was making light of the situation, and suggesting that Jesse "Van Lindberg" Zed for his comments.
Van Lindberging is funny because it's an extreme response to what some devs see as a real problem, opinions without patches. Zed's pointing out he does in fact have patches, and can have more patches if they're likely to be accepted.
He will not do it. He doesn't like to play with others or have his brilliant ideas scrutinized by who he considers lesser people.
So, the way he has to prove me, and others who agree with me, is
- to provide the said patches (a plus, if they don't collide with already existing libraries, let's call Zed's SMTP "zsfasmtp") in publicly accessible libraries
- accept criticism and patches from others
- work with the Python maintainers to help them include his fucking awesome libraries in a future Python release
And that's it.
Until then, we all would gain if only he did shut the fuck up.
a) Either you won't get good quality code because Zed may be right.
or
b) You will get Zed's python branch because he/others got pissed off enough and the python community will be split into two.
I say B is a good solution. Eventually python-fusion will come out. :)
Edit: Let the war begin!
I dunno, what do you think is common to all of these situations? :P
(point being, zed surely could stir the pot less, but he's not changing what's in the pot. And if two pots happen to be similar, i don't know that that's his fault)
Exactly, being an asshole all the time isn't changing anything for the better.
I can see how politeness would be more successful, but I am comparing causing visible public scrutiny while being an asshole vs no public scrutiny.....and you say this approach never could and never has worked?
The truth is that one must create these false hypotheticals in order to justify zed being an asshole.
Huh? Maybe try a re-read of my post.
I'm not justifying him being an asshole, I am countering your assertion that if you are an asshole while pointing out legitimate shortcomings, that it will have no positive affect.
This is a false choice as is clear by your statement that zed is high profile. If he were polite there would still be public scrutiny so your binary hypothetical is meaningless.
Lots of opportunity for pop-psychology here... but best to let it pass...
It seems to me he's justified in not wanting to waste his time writing patches that wouldn't be accepted anyways.
Zed is a gifted hacker of software systems, but I don't really think he's all that good dealing with other mammals.
I'm all for it to the extent that Zed is building his personal brand and (in essence) being a self-promoter. If he really feels self-righteous about it, then that's a bit worrisome.
Zed vs Guido is exactly the sort of David vs Goliath story that makes for entertaining reading...
He is free to provide packages that replace core python libraries. The fact he doesn't want to do so and would only give his contributions if they are included in the standard Python libraries is childish, at best.