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I think there is something much larger at stake though.

The question as you put it, I think, is whether culture should be allowed to arise from the grass roots or whether it should be formed by the state in public schools.

You put it in one way but what about when it comes down to cultural values? We have extended the definition of bullying so far as to cover stated ideological opinions in the US, and therefore we use public school (as I think you are advocating btw) to destroy the diversity and pluralism that has traditionally underscored our society. But what if Indian immigrants want to teach that there is value in the caste system? Must the state use public schools to try to stamp out such a view?

I am btw a large proponent of homeschooling because I think it represents a way for parents to take control of passing culture on to the next generation and that this helps encourage a tolerant and pluralistic society. If Indians want to teach that the caste system is a noble part of India's heritage, bully for them. If Catholics want to teach that radical individualism is harmful, and that marriage is extremely important because it supports the key relationships that hold society together, particularly between parents, grandparents, and children, bully for them.

Accepting and encouraging such diversity is important for our nation. Encouraging culture at the grass roots, I think, is universally important, and it is worth noting that public schools have been, since the time of Lycurgus, an institution intended to destroy that role, and foster the primary loyalty not to one's parents or family but to the state. While this may have worked in ancient Sparta on that scale without destroying the local nature of culture, it cannot scale to the level of a modern country.

I can't help but think about this in relation to the responses I get every time I suggest that the US should try to implement a Canada-style state-by-state single payer system for health care. A few on the right get upset at any notion of single payer, apparently believing that "private sector" is a magical incantation of great power, but the big objections I get are from the left. "But we can't let Alabama run their own health care system! That would be a disaster!" is one typical response. It is as if the role of the government in a democratic country is there to save people from democracy and that, paraphrasing Orwell (in "Animal Farm"), that people are free to make decisions as long as it is decisions that those in power like. But what if families should take responsibility for raising children? What if the general problems of state government belong properly to the residents of that state (aside from things which clearly violate the Constitution, including the Equal Protection Clause, of course)?

I don't understand this hostility towards localism.

Local, to the extent of the family.

If I have kids, to what extent are they 'mine'?

That's the question here.

So far, in America, the answer has been "you can't abuse them physically, fail to provide food and clothes, or make them work" (although there's actually a lot of leeway with that last one).

Other than that, go nuts!

Teach them that UFOs are real, that democracy is evil, to resist the hand of the man, or that money doesn't matter. Or any other radicalism. You made them, they're yours.

Obviously, a stance like that won't please everyone. You're making a decision about an appreciable portion of a kid's life, and since most kids aren't going to get themselves declared emancipated minors, leaving it up to the parents may not appear to be a decision in favor of freedom. But I think it is. Until kids are old enough, they've got to be treated like someone's responsibility, and I don't want to live in a world where the weirdness of parents has no chance to hop generations.

My parents were weirdos, weird enough that, when I flunked multiple classes in 9th grade, they let me try college, where I got straight A's my first semester. At the moment I work 3 months a year from a beach in South America. Had the system not given my parents the freedom to do seemingly irrational things in my interest, I have no idea where I'd have ended up, because the system was wrong and my parents were right.

> So far, in America, the answer has been "you can't abuse them physically, fail to provide food and clothes, or make them work" (although there's actually a lot of leeway with that last one).

As far as the last one, I think the leeway extends through employing them in the family business.

> My parents were weirdos, weird enough that, when I flunked multiple classes in 9th grade, they let me try college, where I got straight A's my first semester. At the moment I work 3 months a year from a beach in South America. Had the system not given my parents the freedom to do seemingly irrational things in my interest, I have no idea where I'd have ended up, because the system was wrong and my parents were right.

Totally support you there. I would go further though and say there is room for many different right answers. I am comfortable with the Amish being exempt from mandatory education laws since Yoder v. Wisconsin. Part of the wonder of life is that there are many different possibilities many of which may be valid to some extent.

Thank you for a good reply, it was a well thought out post.

> I don't understand this hostility towards localism.

I wonder if tolerance for diversity should also include tolerating other countries making their own laws, in this case Germany. It is a democratic country, apparently the majority don't mind this ban on homeschooling. Now yes, I am speaking from a far away perception. Anyone from Germany please help us out here. Is this this seen as such an egregious abuse of power people's power is just not enough to overturn it or is this what most would agree with?

> The question as you put it, I think, is whether culture should be allowed to arise from the grass roots or whether it should be formed by the state in public schools.

I think you might have slightly misread my comment though. It wasn't my intention to say that this law (making homeschooling illegal) should be enacted here in US. I recognize that it probably wouldn't pass and it might not be right.

According to stats I found on some .gov site (after 3 seconds of searching) is that about 3% of students in 2007 were home-schooled in US. The number was rising. So it might be higher now. Some states only let parent who have a masters degree or higher to home school their children, that is an interesting approach.

My original point was more about saying how some countries might choose to make it illegal and I agree with that. Given public schools are safe and decent and provide a good baseline of education. Lack of emphasis on individualism and cultural expression is just well not part of their culture.

Now going back to US or I guess discussing home schooling in general. It seems some things are complimentary -- say one can teach their child to do math in a better way, more efficient, and more intuitive. In general (with exception, I agree) that is complimentary with what they maybe learning in school.

Others are not, like maybe the example with creationism, or how we teach history -- "telling them American Indians were exterminated using bio terrorism by the US government" vs implying that the settlers came to this lush, empty continent, like a God's promised land, with a few native inhabitants who strangely chose to live in mosquito infested swaps or the most absolute dry and inhospitable canyons. There is a propaganda and mentality shaping going on. But it is both ways. Because teaching kids about how great the caste system is or about how the earth is 5000 years old is also borderline on child abuse in my book. I don't usually subscribe to all cultures are just as good. There are fucked up beliefs and fucked up societal conventions. So I imagine that would be the argument against it ( I am not really sharply for one or the other in US, I haven't made my mind yet).

> But what if families should take responsibility for raising children?

But what if they are crippling them should they be allowed? Putting them in a compound and telling them about trumpets on the hill or how there are lizard aliens living among us, instead of learning about integrals and derivatives. Can't you see how perhaps other countries' citizens might agree with having the government step in.

> It is as if the role of the government in a democratic country is there to save people from democracy

I guess it is inevitable that we'd end up discussing generalized political stuff. But alright, we are already in it. The role of the government in the democratic society, ideally, the way I see is to work for the people. People want protection from foreign invaders, they make their taxes into tanks, they want to drive everywhere, they make taxes into roads, they want healthcare, they turn taxes into subsidized pills and doctors' visits. I also don't understand the big obsession in this country with "let the states do it" vs "let the federal government do it". Does it really matter that much. If Alabama can do it, let it do it, if it is easier on the federal level, let's do it there. The reality is -- it hasn't happened. We are stuck with a broken piece of shit health care system.

> I wonder if tolerance for diversity should also include tolerating other countries making their own laws, in this case Germany. It is a democratic country, apparently the majority don't mind this ban on homeschooling. Now yes, I am speaking from a far away perception. Anyone from Germany please help us out here. Is this this seen as such an egregious abuse of power people's power is just not enough to overturn it or is this what most would agree with?

This leads to two fundamentally separable questions in my view. The first is, "do we have a right to criticize across cultural barriers like this?" The second is "Even if we do, is this our problem or a problem for the German people?" The answers I would give are "yes, as long as we contextualize, and it is a problem for the Germans not for us."

So yes, I think they do deserve respect, and as much as I think Germany is wrong here, I don't think this is a case where asylum should be granted. There are many times we can and should say "not our problem." Unfortunately that isn't the way policy seems to work.

> But what if they are crippling them should they be allowed?

Out of curiosity, what do you think of the Supreme Court (unanimously) granting the Amish an exemption from mandatory education laws on the basis that such would destroy their religious way of life in Yoder v. Wisconsin?

The most interesting part of Yoder, IMO, is Douglass' concurrence in part and concurrence in judgement where he complains bitterly about the fact that one whose education is cut short because of such religious reasons will have fewer career opportunities available. In the end even he agreed that the religious exemption must be granted however.

Regarding your points on health care reform, I can understand that. Discussing the views you bring up will lead to long posts far off topic, but suffice it to say that the big issue is a state-by-state single payer would have to be funded through money currently flowing to Medicare. The states can't set up systems if they only have a free hand in regulating a minority of the health care market. There is no doubt that our system is broken though. The larger issue is that there is a question of centralization vs local control and I wonder what motivates people to feel like everything must be centralized to prevent people from endorsing policies they see as bad.

> It is a democratic country, apparently the majority don't mind this ban on homeschooling. Now yes, I am speaking from a far away perception. Anyone from Germany please help us out here. Is this this seen as such an egregious abuse of power people's power is just not enough to overturn it or is this what most would agree with?

In Germany, no-one cares about homeschooling. Other than some neo-nazis, religious cults, and some Christians who believe their children's minds would be poisoned if they were exposed to regular children, that is.

In Germany, this is seen as religious wing-nuts not getting their way, nothing more.

Errr, rather obviously the state cares a lot about it as well.

I suspected that much. Thank you for explaining.

>Are gangs, bullying, racism pervasive?

Being German, there are no gangs like American gangs, there is some bullying (nothing rampant) and racism depends on the area you're in - my school had some problems with Turkish and Armenian kids hating each other, but no fights ever.

Edit: There are a few "problem"-schools which have huge problems with kids from all kinds of backgrounds - the Rütli-school, for example. But I highly doubt the kids of OP's link went ot that school, they're white.

To protect yourself from being inconvenienced by a Christian, you advocate state creation and control of culture, like most "progressives" you are actually an outrageous totalitarian.