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Comment by X-Istence | Hacker News Reader

I don't understand what the obsession is with the old IBM Model M type keyboards. I am able to type faster and more accurately on my Apple flat aluminum keyboard that I have ever been able to type on a Model M. On top of that, switching to a flatter keyboard that sits closer to the desk has actually caused any and all pain I used to get while typing to go away.

The other thing is I'd miss the extra function keys I get on my full size Apple keyboard. Specifically F13-F19, which I have bound to a whole bunch of different things that help me throughout my day.

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I've got two Model M keyboards at home. I could threaten to beat you with one for disagreeing that it's the best thing ever, knowing full well I could continue writing scathing retorts online with it immediately after, but I won't... Because it's not the best ever /for everyone/.

I have an Apple keyboard at work. I don't love or hate it. I'm indifferent to it. But I can totally understand why it may be the right keyboard for you.

Me? I type significantly faster and with fewer mistakes on my ancient Model M. The biggest factor I can see for me is the huge amount of feedback it provides both tactically and audibly (much to the chagrin of my neighbours, I'm sure). I think it helps my brain keep track of what my fingers are doing with less conscious effort, allowing it to work a few steps ahead of my fingers. I grew up when basically all keyboards were chunky and clicky, so it's probably primarily just what I'm used to.

Different editors for different folks. Different browsers. Different operating systems. Different styles of vehicles and modes of transport. Different clothing choices...

Different keyboards.

Yea! A Model M as close encounter weapon of choice and some older nokia phone models as range weapons. Way to go to win any "fight" in the age of "planned obsolescence".

Btw, could it be the "feedback" those keyboards are providing is helping to balance the forces within hands/fingers an thus help to prevent various issues/strains heavy typing can cause?

I brought my Model M to work. The only problem with the Model M are open offices; thankfully my Chinese office mates are very tolerant to noise (and of noise in general, like cell phones ringing all the time).

The year on mine is 1993, which is when I graduated from high school.

Mine is 1988. I've bought 3 of them in a computer cemetery. You'll take it from my cold dead hands.

That wasn't necessary. They can be purchased, brand new, from the same factory.

http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD

You'll take it from my cold dead hands.

... And keep using them.

The hands?

I've bought 3 of them in a computer cemetery I bet after you pry off the rigor mortis hands, all three still work.

You will apparently have to, since you wont be able to pry them from the keyboard

You can reduce the noise a lot by damping the echos. Even putting a towel under your keyboard will make it a lot quieter.

  I could threaten to beat you with one for disagreeing that
  it's the best thing ever, knowing full well I could
  continue writing scathing retorts online with it
  immediately after, but I won't... Because it's not the
  best ever /for everyone/.

Uh, you speak as if the Apple aluminum Keyboard wouldn't hurt just as much or be almost as durable :-)

The aluminum keyboard bends easily. Perhaps if you used it edge on, like a sword.

You've thought this through too much for my liking ;)

Using it edge on is painful...

There's a pretty big mass different to account for

Warhammer versus sword, I'd like to see this happen.

I have a Logitech $10 keyboard. I can keep it on my lap when I type.

I wonder how much net gain a better keyboard gives you in terms of time spent getting it, extra money buying it, and time lost on the internet arguing about it, compared to whatever minor time you save from typing slightly faster or making slightly fewer errors.

I'm kidding though, I understand the appeal of having nicer things. But I suppose the reasoning above is why we aren't all typing on dvorak right now.

I think usually the draw of a nicer keyboard, if you do it right, is not in speed but in saving your hands from having serious problems down the road. Problems which could seriously end up costing you tens of thousands of dollars if you type for a living.

Actually that's a good point I haven't considered. Would the keyboard really make that much of a difference though? It's pretty much the same muscle movements with your hand in the same place.

It would probably make a bigger difference if you got something like the Kinesis Advantage Pro.

The difference is pressure - you have to be used to typing softly on newer Apple keyboards or else you'll soon get pain from the low travel.

Learning to do so can be very rewarding, since the low travel allows a very fast keypress. Typing softly in general is great for finger pain, and mechanical keyboards allow one to use more force but retract before connecting with the keyboard's backplane (bottoming-out in keyboard-speak) and causing the louder "clack" after the initial actuation.

Cherry MX Red switches require less actuation force than an Apple keyboard. A Red will take 45g of weight to depress, while an Apple seems to be closer to 60g [1].

[1] http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1727025

Exactly. The difference is those switches allow a wide range of force, from 45g up, as long as the typist is quick enough to retract before hitting the backplane. Kicking instead of pushing.

Apple keyboards are too low for that to be possible (without some finesse), but for me ~60g is just fine.

I pound on my Apple keyboard and my Macbooks like a madman. It's actually quite loud, especially when I get going.

How soon am I supposed to feel pain in my hands? Two years? Four? Hasn't happened yet.

I have come to really prefer the low travel keyboards, even with my hammer hands.

or else you'll soon get pain from the low travel.

Huh? I am wracking my brain trying to figure out how, biomechanically, a short keystroke can cause pain.

Because you bottom out. With some practice, you can use a mechanical keyboard with never hitting the bottom because you can tell when the key engages (e.g. with a click or change in pressure). Some people believe this can reduce stress on the finger.

I don't understand the fascination with keyboards by software developers. I spend a lot more of my day thinking, testing, navigating code, etc, than I do punching keys. There are a lot of professions where keyboard interaction is critical but I don't think software development is one of them.

  navigating code

I do this with the keyboard (vim)

Same in Emacs. I always watch with fascination (and some frustration) when my friends and coworkers use IDEs—Visual Studio and Xcode, mainly. Some navigational tasks are much faster with pointing or gesturing, but many basic tasks require the same context switch between mouse and keyboard, which I can’t tolerate.

My desktop is currently lacking a screen, but I have purchased a small Thinkpad keyboard for it: great, lite keyboard with a trackpoint - the trackpoint essentially solves the context switch problem and is good enough for everything apart from games.

That's not a context switch. Changing to email is a context switch.

Using a mouse, or trackball, or trackpad, is just input. On my laptop, I don't even lift off of home row to 'mouse' -- I just move my thumb.

At my work desktop, I've got one of those apple wireless keyboards and trackpads and it's actually quite ergonomic, except for the staggered keys.

If I were to switch out, I'd probably get a Kinesis Advantage (I once had a QD Ergo Pro) or a TEK or a TypeMatrix thanks to suggestions in this thread. All three have straight-line keys.

The old ergo I had wore out because I think it was a pre-cherry design.

> That's not a context switch.

What slows me down isn’t necessarily the same as what does you. I find it difficult to start engaging with a pointing device after using a keyboard, though as I said, it is quite fast for many tasks once you’re already in that mode.

Furthermore, it’s possible that I am simply out of practice using pointing devices, because I don’t generally—when drawing or modelling I use a tablet. Absolute space is very different from relative space.

I don't see anything wrong with picking tools you like to use. I'm not a writer, but I do like the crisp feeling of a nice pen on nice paper. A Bic ballpoint on a cheap pad is just not the same, even though it gets the job done.

It's all about the effortlessness that comes when you do start typing. You want it to be as automatic as possible so you're not wasting any of your attention on it. If a keyboard lets you type faster or with fewer typos, that's a win.

P.S. I prefer the mechanical switches but I had to give mine up for the sake of my wife, who was driven batty by the noise.

I went with Cherry MX browns for a combination of tactile feel and quiet operation. Plus, you can get damper rings for the switches so that the keys don't bottom out, which is the majority of the noise, in my experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFkl1Vet1eU

It's not so much that I spend a lot of time punching keys, it's just that I don't want to /think/ about punching keys. If a keyboard is off, it's always a slight distraction while you're trying to focus on other things.

Yes, that's the trend for the last years... writing code with the mouse _shrugs_ ;)

Different (key)strokes for different folks.

I had the same experience. After hearing friends rave about mechanical keyboards I ordered a custom one from WASD. Great build quality though custom engravings are less sharp than I expected. It's a lot of fun to click clack away on, but within 2-3 weeks I developed serious wrist pains that I had never experienced before. My typing wasn't any faster, the noise was distracting (even with "quieter" Cherry Brown switches) and it was seriously crowding up my workspace.

I switched back to the wired Apple keyboard and the pain gradually went away. For my posture and setup the ergonomics of a thin keyboard are a lot better. I can see the romantic beauty of mechanical keyboards, but they're not for everyone. If you're able to, borrow one from a friend before splurging... YMMV.

Did you use a "wrist rest" up front?

Unless you've tilted your keyboard down (away from you), you shouldn't wrest your wrists while you're typing. If the tips of your fingers are above your wrists, you'll get a lot of strain.

You don't have to rest them, but the fact that it's there prevents the wrists from going any farther than that minimum.

I have the same experience as you. I expect there are small differences in arm structure or posture that make us prefer the apple keyboards.

Here is what I wrote: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6287087

Some people have reported smaller hand fatigue using the Model M. I am not one of them, but I respect their different needs.

It's like the Gladwell piece on spaghetti sauce: there's not just one "favorite recipe" for all of humanity. :)

FWIW I type on a mechanical keyboard daily (cherry mx browns) but I am not a fan of the model m keys (buckling springs or rubber dome IIRC), they are very different in feeling.

My Thinkpad x1 carbon keyboard comes next, scissor switches can be quite nice.

The Model M uses buckling springs. Rubber domes are the cheap keyboards you get for $10.

Not quite, the 'Model M' actually refers to a collection of keyboards, some of which used rubber domes (see column 2 of [1] for a quick reference)

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M#Features_by_part_numbe...

Interesting. I have a few IBM non-buckling-spring keyboards, but didn't realize they might also fall under the "Model M" designation.

They're like the Klingons from TOS -- we just don't talk about them.

I can type faster and accurately on any keyboard. In fact once you've learned how to touch type, you can type on any kind of keyboard.

But you are missing the whole point.

Apple's flat keyboard is designed to look nice. Glossy finish, easy to carry and use cases around that. This looks like a keyboard designed for people who don't treat the computer as a work machine but as a utility device. More like browsing the internet or for writing emails.

But if someone is going to spend hours doing some deeply involving work like solving a problem, or trouble shooting or laying first bits of a project or stuck in deep with some interesting issue for hours. Which if you take your time seriously, you will work on such tasks anyway. Then comfort becomes a more important factor than looks and cuteness of the tool.

This is where IBM Model M scores over the glossy Apple's keyboard.

No, he's not missing the point, he's expressing a preference. As shocking as this may be, there are people who do actual real programming that involves solving problems and troubleshooting, and being stuck in deep with interesting issues for hours, on Apple's current keyboards. I know more than one of these people. I know more than one of them have tried objectively good mechanical keyboards and discovered that they prefer Apple's flat keyboards.

Personally, I prefer my Unicomp Spacesaver M keyboard, which I'm typing on now. But Apple's current keyboards are still some of my favorites, and it's not because they're pretty, it's because for low travel keyboards they're really fantastic. There's clearly a lot of thought that's gone into the haptics. They're not squishy. They feel good to type on. I'd rather use them than several mechanical keyboards that I've bought, and I'd much rather use them than any membrane keyboard that I've ever used, including some fairly expensive "ergonomic" models. I actually suspect, somewhat to my chagrin, that I'm faster typing on Apple keyboards than I am on the Unicomp.

Yes, Apple stuff is pretty. Tra-la, look at me, I'm an Apple product! Woo! But aesthetics and functionality are not opposite ends of the same axis.

I don't think he's missing the point. I also find the scissor type keyboards to be a better fit than the model M and derivatives. And I also touch type & spend hours a day typing.

> switching to a flatter keyboard that sits closer to the desk has actually caused any and all pain I used to get while typing to go away.

Then your desk was too high.

But hey, ISO 9241 made the same mistake, and drove the best keyswitches ever off the market for being over an inch high.

My desk is the right height so that my elbows form just over a 90 degree angle with the table. Having my chair lower, and thus having my arms bent more is extremely uncomfortable.

The problem I have with the Model M and their various clones is that the keys simple sit too high. The only way I could get comfortable is by getting one of those keyboard gel cushions that sits in front of the keyboard. Not required with the Apple keyboard.

I don't follow you. If ‘the keys simple sit too high’, then the keyboard is too high, which can be solved by lowering it.

I think he means too high with respect to the desktop/table surface.

Having used them for years, I still kinda hate apple keyboards. It's the shape of the keys. Most keyboards have keys with a slight indent, which guides your fingers as you type, whereas the completely flat keys on apple keyboards makes every keypress feel tentative. They /look/ nice, but the overall feel is terrible.

Agree but in my case a ThinkPad T400 keyboard. Quiet with positive feeling and plenty of space between keytops.

My model M made my hands hurt and pissed everyone else off after about 5 minutes. Plus it's not practical even with my docking station / desktop setup.

The bad part about the T400 for some people is the ESC key is on the 7th row, where it should be on the 6th on the left of the F1 key.

I actually find that better as I'm forever hitting F1 instead of Esc in vim.

The much prefer the Model M to any other keyboard I've used including Apple keyboards.

I do like the old Transparent Apple keyboards (G4 era?) with the nice slab of metal in it to keep them heavy.

From my experience, the obsession lies somewhere in the overlapping segment of the euler diagram of "nerd-cred", liking the tactical feel, and nostalgia.

Same here. I've used a Filco MajesticTouch (with Cherry MX Brown) for a like a month but switched back to Apple keyboards because I prefer its flatness.

This is the exact model I'm typing on now, and have a Das Keyboard for Mac at home (because I couldn't find anything less pretentious-sounding with Mac keys). The thing I prefer with this keyboard over the Mac standard, and similar low-profile keyboards, is the lack of 'mushiness' when you hit a key. Did I hit that key with the right amount of pressure? Did it really register, or just kinda mush into place?

This is literally never an issue with mechanical keyboards, because no guesswork is required. Once you're used to the activation points and tactile feedback, you should find that you're using less pressure and getting greater accuracy with your typing.

At least, that's how it worked for me.

Unicomp's Spacesaver M is a buckling spring keyboard with Mac keys. I like it a bit more than the Das, and it's both cheaper and seems to be built better. (It's pretty ugly, though.)

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